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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:40 am 
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Help!!! TB cross mare with intermittent lameness in the right fore and shoulder. Given racetrack cocktail of long acting cortisone and methotrexate to supress immune response, she developed ataxia and neurological signs. (Treatment was for soreness in tendons and hocks, the vet thinking see was sore from over stress.) Tested spinal fluid for EPM and Lyme's disease, both negative. What else causes ataxia, less propioception in the hind limb, and intermittent soreness? At least 5 good vets involved with this--no good answers. Mary Syers


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 Post subject: neurological
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:04 am 
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A reason might be, that the nerves in the back are hurt.
This is shown as lameness, it even brings ataxia, or the wobbler syndrome.
You can test it out, by careful examiniation of the completely neck and back, by using the top of your fingers with a very light pressure.
By dooiing this with your fingertops, you,re feeling differences.
Long time using cortisone gives tremendous bones problems, they seemed
to get swallowed.
Ben


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:16 am 
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I imagine that the RF issues was being compensated for by the LH, and the cocktail pushed the stressed hind end over the edge.

OR you are seeing a low-level systemic reaction to the cocktail.

Have you had a chiropractor look at the horse? Or a massage therapist?

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And thou fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse. - The Qur'an


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 Post subject: neurological
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:22 am 
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I,ve had tremendous results with a treatment, by acupressure.
A chiropractor makes spaces between the joints in the back, wich is given in the long time, more troubles then what the horse is having now.

Ben


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:51 am 
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This mare has been treated by a Accupuncturist--trained in China, the best Eguine Chiropractor in Iowa, a massage theorapist and an equine communicator. The accupuncturist actually lit the mare on fire, i.e. lit an alcohol soaked pad on the mares shoulder to increase heat. The chiropractor says it s EPM. The racetrack vet that treated her with the steroids due to soreness of the hocks and right front check ligament that were there. I put my thumb in that check ligament myself, it was sore, but two days latter the pain was no longer there. I know this because I watched the best amblatory veterinarian in this state put her thumb in that same check ligament two days after I did and get no pain response. The racetrack vet now says its EPM and wants to treat with Doxytetracycline. The ambliatory vet says probably impar ligament(navicular ligament). The communicator says the mare says she has a sore back.

The spinal tap showed red blood cells --which should have not been there. Phagacytic macrophages--which should not have been there. Lymphocytes in higher numbers than should have been there. EPM and Lyme's IGG titer on spinal fluid were negative. We're talking PCR on the spinal fluid for EPM.

Anybody else have a non-diagnoses lameness that they finally figured our? Mary Syers


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:07 am 
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If she has all that garbage in her cerebral-spial fluid, heck yes she'll have a sore back. :( But that is just a symptom.

{{Mary}} I hope you find a way to help her.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:16 am 
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Garbage in the back is not causing the sore back-it's responding to the cause. If we could find the cause, we might be able to make this mare go sound. Shes a granddaughter of Sham, and a hell of a mover. She has a career in higher level dressage and eventing in her future if we can figure out the spinal column thing. Mary


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Mary - Was this mare not performing to expectations in her workouts prior to the 'cocktail' being given to her for her soreness? Did she look and act like a world beater getting to the track in the morning only to flatten out in her gallops/workouts, then come back only slightly sweated and not even blowing at all, ready to kick the stall down?

IF this was the case before all the lameness/cocktail business began I'm going to suggest you have her scoped, before - and if she can tolerate it with no ill effect, after whatever exercise she'll handle. This exam should be carried out as described in the linked article below and I would suggest you pay particular attention to her gutteral pouches, gently inserting and retracting the endoscope so as to cause her to displace her soft palate, while viewing the gutteral pouch openings. Your mare may have gutteral pouch infections, which if she experienced exercise induced stress sufficient to override her intolerance to it may have caused overheated blood to reach her brain or swelling of nerves that pass through the immediate area of gutteral pouches - essentially causing a stroke like event in her brain and this may be the source of the intermittant, yet persistent over time "lameness".

I am quite sure that I had this happen to my first homebred gelding. As a late 2YO he was given a short lasting performance enhancer to "encourage" him to perform beyond the plateau he had seemingly retreated to. He was "flattening out" at in every workout after initially doing very well, despite being exceedingly fit and eager to go to the track each morning. I approved of this drug approach to getting past what was thought to be a mental block rather than attributed to anything physical. He actually put in the slowest work time of his career that day but coming off the track he literally staggered and slid down the apron like he was a punch drunk fighter, swinging his head wildly from side to side - as if to see where his feet were - while alternately going extremely base wide in front or rear, his knees threatening to buckle up front and back every time he stopped and lowered his head. It was one of the most sickening things I've ever witnessed - definitely a horse in extreme duress, he very nearly collapsed right there in front of us two or three times. I thought he'd broken a leg or shoulder in his workout somehow he was so erratic in his movements. Recovering somewhat in the next 3-5 minutes he walked back to the barn, sopping wet with sweat, his gait way off, dragging one hoof on each stride, stumbling about every second or third step. As he cooled out his way of going got more normal although I thought I could still see offness in his stride. Late for an appointment I asked that he be thoroughly lameness tested and X-rayed if at all recommended and left. I was told he was tested by the track vet an hour or two later and was "fine - no lameness". I had him shipped back to the farm where my decision to end his training was questioned by one and all who say him racing around his stall. However, I spent hours watching him and noticed just the ever so slight 'offness' or slight hitch in his stride once in a while. A new vet came out to the farm and noticed in leading him in and out of the barn doorway that he stumbled on it every time, in both directions, even if only slightly. Then he did the lameness test where you hold the horse's foreleg curled up under him for a full minute before releasing it as a handler moves the horse out smartly at the same time as the release of the foreleg. ONLY we never got that far because after only seconds he went totally ataxic again - almost as bad as he had been at the track. Then we put him in a round pen and we watched as he trembled in his legs every time he tried to lower his head to graze or went wonky after taking a quick stride or two - especially if he threw his head upwards, when he would go base wide, then alternately wildly swinging his head from side to side as a counterweight to a rear end he could not guess where it was going. WE all thought EPM but he came back negative for that and then went to A&M for thorough exam. Nothing on X-rays but because of the intermittant lameness "a nuerological lesion beetween the C-2 and C-3 vertebrae" was diagnosed and a spinal tap/MRI was recommended, also that he be donated to science for these special, expensive treatements with the understanding that afterwards he might well be used for forensic studies. Basicly I was told he was a walking paraplegic who might collapse at any minute and would need to be put down in any event. I hesitated though to pull the trigger on him and about three weeks later went up to the farm and there he was in a paddock leaping into the air and making perfect four point landings - like a Lippizzanner...not a paraplegic! Yet another vet - a sports medicine vet this time but one who had a lot of exerience with racing thoroughbreds - diagnosed him as having "an exercise induced pulmonary issue" as well as a slight nerve disorder along the left side of his neck that was effecting the timing of the opening and closing of sequential valves along his main artery from his lungs to his brain. She recommended the scoping procedure to see what exactly was going on....doing so before and after a gallop. Fourth vet, a colleague of vet #3, did the scoping and simply by chance we caught sight of his gutteral pouches: packed to the brim with "nasty stuff" that to my untrained eyes appeared to be grains of coarse sand, like gravel. This impacted "stuff" may have been the result of long past infection, [probabally strangles that he had been exposed to as a long yearling and treated for (but I was told it was only preventative - that all he had was the snots.], now residually residing in his gutteral pouches.). Vet #4 said she'd never seen such packed G.P.s and that every time he began exercising and breathing deeply some of that "stuff" probabally got into this airway causing him to displace his soft palate as he was alternately choking and trying to cough out the bit, but in any event slowing or stopping his level of activity to accomodate that interference. None of this really explained the "ataxia/lameness" but at least it was something I could SEE and UNDERSTAND might be a performance inhibitor - so we flushed out his G.P.'s and began re-conditioning him to race. About four months after that discovery an article appeared in The Bloodhorse about some Canadian scientists' discovery that in horses asked to perform at extreme levels and for protracted periods of time - as in race horses, particularly when coupled with high heat and humidity factors - infected gutteral pouches could gravely - even fatally - affect such a horse's neurological function, resulting in extreme cases of exercise induced stroke fatalities .

A giant light bulb went off as I relived watching my horse come down off that track apron in complete lack of control of his body parts/limbs' where abouts and the persistence of such "lameness"/neurological defects. The "drug" cocktail that I Ok'd the trainer to give this horse prior to that workout had pushed him over his own self limiting behavior and the results had damn near killed him. I am convinced he had had overheated blood go to his brain, had experienced a stroke event as a result and that it took about two months for his brain to "map around" the damaged area/areas to wipe out his neurological deficits. He did go on to race - once - and then converted to a nice little eventer for a friend who said he was the boldest and toughest little competitor she ever rode, and the quickest to learn something from his training. Here's the link, give it some thought, and let me add one other thing. My horse had none of the overt symptoms they describe here, he was one of the 30% with no gurgling or open mouthed, loud breathing, although he did cough even as he walked up to the track in the mornings to do his work or gallop. The important thing is that this condition can have very dramatic effects that seem to emanate from other sources like his spine or brain, because that's where the 'damage' occurs but not the source of the problem -

http://www.louisianabred.com/Veterinary ... er2002.htm


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:33 pm 
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jellac,
Let me take a closer look at the mare and I'll get back to you. Thank's for sharing this. Mary


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:12 pm 
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We had a similar experience to jellac's with a gelding of ours. Came off the track staggering lame after a race. We thought he had broken down but he showed no injury that would indicate the severity of lameness. He eventually walked out of the lameness but was in severe distress and it was found after blood work that his blood glucose level was extremely low due to problems converting carbohydrates into simple sugars. He went on to run until he was 10 but had to have honey added to his feed while in training. Also had one other mare with the same conversion issue in reverse where she could not utilize glucose stores and showed the same lameness which was immediate and severe, but relatively short-lived, but neither horse showed the problem until under stress (workout or race).


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:25 am 
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Just a thought...though I don't have any experience with Lyme disease in horses, I have lots of experience with it in humans and dogs. Every vet and doctor I've dealt with has told me that the Lyme test is about 50% inaccurate, so it's entirely possible that your horse has Lyme disease and you got a false negative reading on the test.


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