I've had them, and just about every breeder I know has had them. Back in the day, we didn't talk about it, we just put them on a trailer and snuck them down to Cornell for the screws or the periostial stripping, kept them in a box stall, and voila - like magic, they showed up at the sales and like magic -they weren't crooked anymore.
But now, years later, its not such a big secret anymore. Everyone seems to know that if you breed, and you have 3-5 foals a year average, at least one of them is going to have some variation of an angular limb deviation, no matter how careful you are. And some of us have stopped taking them down and having them corrected (even though the procedure is CHEAP - all inclusive teaching procedure that costs between $250-$500. with remarkably successful results), but - we've discovered - or I have at least - that it doesn't make a lick of difference in performance on the racetrack.
I've taken in clients horses over the years that were so crooked it made me cringe - and then I've watched those same horses go to the track and make their owners "financially happy". And I've watched horses that I've corrected myself do nothing on the track, or horses that were better bred than crooked horses and were perfect - do nothing on the track - or worse- have watched horses that I corrected end up having some friek accident and fracture - and I've always wondered - once crooked - always crooked? - even if you fix the cosmetic part of it??
I'm curious - what is everyones thoughts on this? I know we all do our best to breed away from ALD - but it does happen, even when we hope we're breeding away from this kind of a defect. And in the event that it does happen, (you buy an in foal mare where the original breeder wasn't as thorough as you may have been) - whats the thought on corrective surgery - or not?
whats the general consensus on crooked foals?
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, madelyn
We had a foal several years ago, born straight, but when we sent her with momma out to be rebred, the mare got sick and the foal became crooked. (We're thinking maybe from all the meds pumped into mom that came through the milk.) When consulting with vets about options for the foal, the consensus was that their legs change so much at an early age that the best thing to do is wait and see how they will develop on their own. With this particular filly, 3 legs ended up straight again, one was slightly crooked but the knee, etc. was straight (via Xray) and she was sound.
We had one last year that was born crooked, but straighted up very quickly all on her own to become a perfectly conformed yearling. Some friends had a foal born crooked. They had made arrangements to take the foal in for surgery, but those legs also straightened up all on their own. I know of another born this year with very crooked legs, and those legs straighted up as soon as that foal developed a chest and some muscling!
It is my understanding that crooked legs can be the result of how a foal is positioned in the womb, etc... and not always genetic at all. Why on earth would you want to jump into sugery when in many cases it's completely unneccesary?
So, I guess my opinion is not to panic if there's a foal born with crooked legs... it's been my experience (all of the above mentioned foals were of different bloodlines, by the way) that mother nature will probably straighten them up by herself. Of course, I also believe in getting those foals outside to run run run as soon as possible, and for as close to 24 - 7 as possible... I strongly believe that does wonderful things for them as well.
We've only ever sold privately, not at auction, and I like to be able to say "what you see is what you get" and be able to honestly tell folks that our horses are free of surgery, steroids, and all the other "tricks" of the trade; instead they are healthy, hardy, sound and "real." Of course, that's just my opinion, and we all know that there are as many opinions as their are posters on this board!
We had one last year that was born crooked, but straighted up very quickly all on her own to become a perfectly conformed yearling. Some friends had a foal born crooked. They had made arrangements to take the foal in for surgery, but those legs also straightened up all on their own. I know of another born this year with very crooked legs, and those legs straighted up as soon as that foal developed a chest and some muscling!
It is my understanding that crooked legs can be the result of how a foal is positioned in the womb, etc... and not always genetic at all. Why on earth would you want to jump into sugery when in many cases it's completely unneccesary?
So, I guess my opinion is not to panic if there's a foal born with crooked legs... it's been my experience (all of the above mentioned foals were of different bloodlines, by the way) that mother nature will probably straighten them up by herself. Of course, I also believe in getting those foals outside to run run run as soon as possible, and for as close to 24 - 7 as possible... I strongly believe that does wonderful things for them as well.
We've only ever sold privately, not at auction, and I like to be able to say "what you see is what you get" and be able to honestly tell folks that our horses are free of surgery, steroids, and all the other "tricks" of the trade; instead they are healthy, hardy, sound and "real." Of course, that's just my opinion, and we all know that there are as many opinions as their are posters on this board!
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
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serenarider
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We've only ever sold privately, not at auction, and I like to be able to say "what you see is what you get" and be able to honestly tell folks that our horses are free of surgery, steroids, and all the other "tricks" of the trade; instead they are healthy, hardy, sound and "real." Of course, that's just my opinion, and we all know that there are as many opinions as their are posters on this board!
Thank god there are others that think like me:) Getting out and getting strong is a very big part with the foals. I have seen big barns here think that keeping there foals in there stalls for weeks on end thinking that will make them get bigger faster for a sales.
People kill me. The sad thing is people buy thease horses haveing no idea how they were brought up.
Roguelet is right on the money, it pays to wait. We had a filly this year who looked, well, like inverted parentheses in front, and is now (5 mo old) as straight as a die. In rushing to the table it is possible to "correct" something that doesn't need correction and as you probably know, every action has an effect. Wait for all those muscles and ligaments to tighten and align before you cut....
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
My best mare throws foals that are horribly crooked when they are born 75% of the time. Every one of those foal has been straight as an arrow by the time they hit their yearling year and I'm talking about some babies you would look at and just give up on. I think its best to wait for any corrective procedure until the foal's had some time to grow. Lord knows their parts don't always grow in unison and this can cause some funky growth spurt uglies.
Early on in this I had a filly born very windswept she was by a first season sire whom at the time a lot of breeders that went to this particular boy were getting crooked foals (obviously this was greatly discussed after the fact) the mare and foal were shipped to Ireland for covering with the view that the filly would either straighten or not- as she looked pretty bad and it was early days - In Ireland however it was explained to us that a simple op could be done she'd be straight and no one would ever know and then we could just sell her as a yearling and they advised selling the mare once infoal (albeit her being nearly perfect conformation) stupidly we went ahead- the filly never did correct and was lame on/off forever more, the mare we didn't sell and she has produced correct foals since (we had the one and sold her infoal after that, but they are correct)-
oh and the sire is a good sire, just you have to take a chance!
more recently we had a filly born with complete knock knees, she is now 2 (not in training) and is almost straight we have had her farriered since birth but never more than a leveling trim- no wedges etc. - as I believe that the horse is stronger natural than when we have tried to get the legs straight- but I am not a commercial operation I will race the filly and she was never intended for sale so hence my blase attitude.
However even at the sales I'd rather see the horse in its natural crooked shape than fakely straight- as this will cause problems racing and latterly breeding- what happens when those foals may come out crooked and you look at the dam? >>>
oh and the sire is a good sire, just you have to take a chance!
more recently we had a filly born with complete knock knees, she is now 2 (not in training) and is almost straight we have had her farriered since birth but never more than a leveling trim- no wedges etc. - as I believe that the horse is stronger natural than when we have tried to get the legs straight- but I am not a commercial operation I will race the filly and she was never intended for sale so hence my blase attitude.
However even at the sales I'd rather see the horse in its natural crooked shape than fakely straight- as this will cause problems racing and latterly breeding- what happens when those foals may come out crooked and you look at the dam? >>>
Not to mention when the operation sort of goes wrong... recently I saw a horse dumped at a sale. He had fairly obviously had corrective surgery because his legs were plastic-surgery perfect to look at.... until he moved. He could barely walk without hitting himself. Whatever hack tried to straighten his legs didn't take into account the conformation of his shoulder..
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Can you sort through the various conformation "variations" that foals are born with and see which ones are likely to take care of themselves? I guess I would worry about windswept feet more than say, knock knees in a foal (because I've personally witnessed that correcting itself).
Some folks I knew had a nice filly with some speed but seriously windswept feet, who ended up showing signs of tendon strain (on the toed-in side) and was retired. I was told by her owners that the defect was far less dramatic as a yearling, when they purchased her. So in that case it got worse. Maybe she had been "corrected" earlier.
My mother was seriously worried about me when I was born because I had crossed toes on one foot. I'm glad the doctor didn't suggest surgery - he was very kind to my mother but told her to have some patience. The toes uncrossed in due course, when I started walking, though it took until I was 5 or 6 for them to be completely straight. I would be an advocate of more turn-out and less obsessing too!
Unfortunately, the ability to tinker sometimes creates the sense of obligation to do so - particularly when people are managing foals for others, and therefore are less likely to advocate taking a chance on a problem self-correcting.
I was reading, I think in "Stud", a large farm manager's thoughts on the subject, and he simply took it for granted you would do surgery, because when you have spent in the high five to low six figures for a stud fee it wouldn't make sense to not operate as "insurance." The thinking struck me as slightly warped, but then I'm not in the epicenter of the industry.
It's reassuring to hear from so many people saying the reverse!
Some folks I knew had a nice filly with some speed but seriously windswept feet, who ended up showing signs of tendon strain (on the toed-in side) and was retired. I was told by her owners that the defect was far less dramatic as a yearling, when they purchased her. So in that case it got worse. Maybe she had been "corrected" earlier.
My mother was seriously worried about me when I was born because I had crossed toes on one foot. I'm glad the doctor didn't suggest surgery - he was very kind to my mother but told her to have some patience. The toes uncrossed in due course, when I started walking, though it took until I was 5 or 6 for them to be completely straight. I would be an advocate of more turn-out and less obsessing too!
Unfortunately, the ability to tinker sometimes creates the sense of obligation to do so - particularly when people are managing foals for others, and therefore are less likely to advocate taking a chance on a problem self-correcting.
I was reading, I think in "Stud", a large farm manager's thoughts on the subject, and he simply took it for granted you would do surgery, because when you have spent in the high five to low six figures for a stud fee it wouldn't make sense to not operate as "insurance." The thinking struck me as slightly warped, but then I'm not in the epicenter of the industry.
It's reassuring to hear from so many people saying the reverse!
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KamiBrooks
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"he simply took it for granted you would do surgery, because when you have spent in the high five to low six figures for a stud fee it wouldn't make sense to not operate as "insurance." The thinking struck me as slightly warped, but then I'm not in the epicenter of the industry. "
Makes you wonder how many of those high dollar foals might have been ruined by impatience and not being allowed to grow out of it naturally?
Makes you wonder how many of those high dollar foals might have been ruined by impatience and not being allowed to grow out of it naturally?
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kylendiamond
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From personal experience, I would say that the surgical corrections do not truly correct the problem.
By personal experience, I mean my own legs. I was severely toed-in, went through corrective shoeing when learning to walk. Now, my ankles are nearly straight. My entire leg is not. I am knock-kneed, and yet my kneecaps actually point outwards a bit. My feet point nearly straight forward. Were my knees straight to start with and the crookedness caused by correction or were they always like this? I don't know. Here is what I do know: Admittedly, I do have occasional problems with my knees. However, the problems with my ankles (remember, my ankles were straightened) are more than occasional, fairly frequent. The problems with my ankles lie to the outside of my foot, which would indicate either bowleggedness or toed-in. I am definitely not bowlegged. The conformation of my legs would lean me toward wearing more on the inside of my foot than the outside, yet I wear the outside much more.
The short version is: Based on my experience, the problem will always be there, it just might not be quite so outwardly obvious.
By personal experience, I mean my own legs. I was severely toed-in, went through corrective shoeing when learning to walk. Now, my ankles are nearly straight. My entire leg is not. I am knock-kneed, and yet my kneecaps actually point outwards a bit. My feet point nearly straight forward. Were my knees straight to start with and the crookedness caused by correction or were they always like this? I don't know. Here is what I do know: Admittedly, I do have occasional problems with my knees. However, the problems with my ankles (remember, my ankles were straightened) are more than occasional, fairly frequent. The problems with my ankles lie to the outside of my foot, which would indicate either bowleggedness or toed-in. I am definitely not bowlegged. The conformation of my legs would lean me toward wearing more on the inside of my foot than the outside, yet I wear the outside much more.
The short version is: Based on my experience, the problem will always be there, it just might not be quite so outwardly obvious.
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mightyhijames
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toeing out
we have a may 2004 yearling that was born with a very weak left back foot that toed way out. we took him to virginia, they put him in a splint and stall rest for 6 weeks without much improvement, if any. he's a normal 'kid' now, turned out with the rest of the boys daily, and regular trims by the farrier; he's wearing normally, not extensively on either side. his back foot seems to have come around some but we're concerned about putting him into race training and are thinking of holding off for another year. any thoughts on whether he's as good as he'll get, if it's a good idea to wait, etc?
thanks.
thanks.
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Karie
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austique wrote "My best mare throws foals that are horribly crooked when they are born 75% of the time. Every one of those foal has been straight as an arrow by the time they hit their yearling year and I'm talking about some babies you would look at and just give up on."
My Mehmet mare does the same thing. 2004 the filly had the worst crookedest front legs that anyone had ever seen.... and now as a yearling is PERFECTLY correct! This year her filly (Quarter horse) came out with a rear end that looked like it had taken a sharp left turn from her body... both back legs went in opposite directions.. It was gross to look at. I really didn't know what to do... But I did nothing other than turn her out... Gradually day by day she improved and is 100% correct now! She could easily win a halter class if I took the time to show her...
Its amazing what time will do with a crooked baby.....
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Shammy Davis
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I tend to believe that patience and good care is the way to go. Surgery, et al, is very expensive and one mistake and the problem is complicated even more. I do know that in less severe cases many horses, that have had juvenile limb problems, can be conditioned to withstand training and athletic events. Often, a good farrier and supportive vet, can relieve adult problems with corrective trimming and shoeing. Physitis is the most common problem I've seen over the past 10 years. Breeders and owners have really got to lay off fattening the babies up. We often forget that animals can adjust and can overcome limitations if we let them show us where their limitations are.
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Karie
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I guess I should have added that this years filly with the crazy rear end and legs took about 2 1/2 weeks before she could walk normally and within 4 weeks was perfectly straight.
I should have taken pictures.. but it hurt just to look at her.
I did call the vet out to look at her, but he (twice) told me to wait another week.. Glad i waited and listened..
Oh and that same filly didn't have a single tooth when she was born.
It was about 2 weeks before I saw her first tooth!
if only she didn't have them still... the little witch got me good in the forearm today! Have a huge bruise! Weanlings are sooo naughty!
I should have taken pictures.. but it hurt just to look at her.
I did call the vet out to look at her, but he (twice) told me to wait another week.. Glad i waited and listened..
Oh and that same filly didn't have a single tooth when she was born.
It was about 2 weeks before I saw her first tooth!
if only she didn't have them still... the little witch got me good in the forearm today! Have a huge bruise! Weanlings are sooo naughty!
Karie,
At least you didn't have to deal with a KY farm that wanted to trim the filly every week!
I kept trying to tell them "Look every foals she's had looks like that when they're little just leave it alone and let her develop naturally." I actually do have photos of my little train wreck. I think in my mare's case it's because she puts such a wide chest on her foals and it takes a while to build up the muscle to get the legs pointing in the right direction. Her 2yo was so crooked most people thought he would never run and he now perfectly straight and working well. Go figure!
At least you didn't have to deal with a KY farm that wanted to trim the filly every week!
I kept trying to tell them "Look every foals she's had looks like that when they're little just leave it alone and let her develop naturally." I actually do have photos of my little train wreck. I think in my mare's case it's because she puts such a wide chest on her foals and it takes a while to build up the muscle to get the legs pointing in the right direction. Her 2yo was so crooked most people thought he would never run and he now perfectly straight and working well. Go figure!