griff wrote:Does anyone "sack' horses any more?
griff
I do, but only after a horse trusts me. I start by just rubbing the horse with a blanket and work up to the old fashion sacking.
Long, detailed post... creative ideas needed!
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I find it very hard to belive that your filly has been abused, I think she's just a brat with no training thats got away with acting like that than when someone is mean to her, like the barn manager( who in my oppinion is afarid of her and she knows it) she over reacts. Tipical premadona filly. Don't let her have and inch and I'll bet she will be fine, at least with you.
Whether she has been abused or not, the training is still the same. Don't let her get away with anything. Your approach might be different, though. For instance, if she has been whipped, you won't get her undivided attention if you show up carrying the object she fears. Another object, a rope, for example, might be better to use.
It's nice to know something of her past because at least you'll know "why" she does what she does. I have a QH gelding with left stirrup issues. Sometimes, when weight is put in the stirrup he FREAKS out. But only sometimes. I know exactly where that came from, though. The first time he was saddled they walked him through a garden gate, which caught on his stirrup. He tried to stop but they pulled him through. The gate came off the hinges spooking him into a dead run dragging the gate, through a fence, the saddle slid under his belly, tripping him into a somersault, bashing his poor face into wounds that required stitches.
Yup, when we re-visit that trauma, he becomes quite a brat. Sometimes I think he is using that episode as an excuse not to work. Other times he looks genuinely scared.
How old is the filly? Where did you get her?
It's nice to know something of her past because at least you'll know "why" she does what she does. I have a QH gelding with left stirrup issues. Sometimes, when weight is put in the stirrup he FREAKS out. But only sometimes. I know exactly where that came from, though. The first time he was saddled they walked him through a garden gate, which caught on his stirrup. He tried to stop but they pulled him through. The gate came off the hinges spooking him into a dead run dragging the gate, through a fence, the saddle slid under his belly, tripping him into a somersault, bashing his poor face into wounds that required stitches.
Yup, when we re-visit that trauma, he becomes quite a brat. Sometimes I think he is using that episode as an excuse not to work. Other times he looks genuinely scared.
How old is the filly? Where did you get her?
My heart belongs to Our Mims, 1977 three year old filly champion, March 8, 1974- December 9, 2003
Here's my two cents... if you can afford to, I would possibly think about finding a reputable natural horsemanship trainer in your area (if there is a good one) and see if they can come out and get into her head... someone needs to nail down the true cause of her behavior (i.e., scared, bratty, etc.) before her behavior issues can be tackled.
At the least, if they can give you some direction on how to work with her to not only discipline her when she acts out (if indeed, she's just being bratty) but find ways to discourage her to not want to act that way in the first place... otherwise, I'm afraid you'll just end up in a pissing contest with her—she kicks, you discipline her, she kicks again, you discipline her again—she needs to be diffused of her behavior, if it is ever going to change... and you don't want her learning to associate a negative response with you, or it could make things worse between you...
For example—and I'm not saying this is the best thing to try, just using it to make a point—some people put a kick chain on a horse's back ankles. When the horse kicks, they punish themselves—it doesn't come from you. And it doesn't take long before they'll not want to do it (although I'm sure there are exceptions!). So, the right trainer should be able to suggest some things that work in the same manner, perhaps...
I'd just hate to see her get worse, and either you or someone else get hurt in the process... I'm confident she can be turned around, but you want to do all the right things from the get-go, as it's a serious situation.
JMO, for what it's worth!
At the least, if they can give you some direction on how to work with her to not only discipline her when she acts out (if indeed, she's just being bratty) but find ways to discourage her to not want to act that way in the first place... otherwise, I'm afraid you'll just end up in a pissing contest with her—she kicks, you discipline her, she kicks again, you discipline her again—she needs to be diffused of her behavior, if it is ever going to change... and you don't want her learning to associate a negative response with you, or it could make things worse between you...
For example—and I'm not saying this is the best thing to try, just using it to make a point—some people put a kick chain on a horse's back ankles. When the horse kicks, they punish themselves—it doesn't come from you. And it doesn't take long before they'll not want to do it (although I'm sure there are exceptions!). So, the right trainer should be able to suggest some things that work in the same manner, perhaps...
I'd just hate to see her get worse, and either you or someone else get hurt in the process... I'm confident she can be turned around, but you want to do all the right things from the get-go, as it's a serious situation.
JMO, for what it's worth!
She's 3 on April 30th. I've had her since Dec 1st, and have been working with her since Sept 28th. I got her from my college, they felt she should have been sold as a broodmare prospect. She was supposed to be one of their racehorses, until her ankle injury ended her training. They were at the point where they had someone bellied up on her once.
She had a lot of issues when I started working with her. By the time she left in Dec, most people could lead her without a problem, as long as they were firm but gentle with her. Some of the barn workers said before I came along, only the barn manager handled her.
The natural horsemanship trainer just called me back. He said he wouldn't mind training her and I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, since I'd be learning his techniques and learning how to continue her training without a hitch.
The only problem, then, is that she'll still be at a barn where there's next to no turnout until late spring, where they're hand feeding her, and lord knows what else. But at least she'd be ready to go under saddle (or maybe even under it by the time I move her).
I'm looking at an eventing/dressage barn 3 miles from the one she's at now. I'm visiting that barn and meeting with the natural horse trainer at her current barn tomorrow.
I'm proceeding with caution with both finding a new barn and maybe hiring that trainer.
She had a lot of issues when I started working with her. By the time she left in Dec, most people could lead her without a problem, as long as they were firm but gentle with her. Some of the barn workers said before I came along, only the barn manager handled her.
The natural horsemanship trainer just called me back. He said he wouldn't mind training her and I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, since I'd be learning his techniques and learning how to continue her training without a hitch.
The only problem, then, is that she'll still be at a barn where there's next to no turnout until late spring, where they're hand feeding her, and lord knows what else. But at least she'd be ready to go under saddle (or maybe even under it by the time I move her).
I'm looking at an eventing/dressage barn 3 miles from the one she's at now. I'm visiting that barn and meeting with the natural horse trainer at her current barn tomorrow.
I'm proceeding with caution with both finding a new barn and maybe hiring that trainer.
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
It sounds like you have a solid plan in place! 
And as she's 3, she's just a baby still (did I miss her age?). Could be as simple as being handled by too many different people—not enough consistency or a clear message. She could be confused & acting out because of frustration...
Hang in there, though... and keep us posted!
And as she's 3, she's just a baby still (did I miss her age?). Could be as simple as being handled by too many different people—not enough consistency or a clear message. She could be confused & acting out because of frustration...
Hang in there, though... and keep us posted!
Yup, she's still a baby 
A big baby. (Thank God! I'm 5'9"!!!) She's 1/2way between 16 and 16.1hh already as of Dec 2nd. I should measure her height again soon. She's such a ham for the camera 
I'm torn. I think I want that trainer to work with her, and he only will at her current barn, but I don't want her to stay at that barn when they're not respecting me as an owner - especially with the turn out not happening for long enough periods of time.
But at least she'd be at the same place two of the horses I excercise every other day (starting in mid January!)for a little while longer, and I turn 19 on Wednesday, so hopefully some good news will materialize in checking out the new barn and meeting with the trainer. If nothing else, at least I can see her (and go riding too!!!)
A big baby. (Thank God! I'm 5'9"!!!) She's 1/2way between 16 and 16.1hh already as of Dec 2nd. I should measure her height again soon. She's such a ham for the camera
I'm torn. I think I want that trainer to work with her, and he only will at her current barn, but I don't want her to stay at that barn when they're not respecting me as an owner - especially with the turn out not happening for long enough periods of time.
But at least she'd be at the same place two of the horses I excercise every other day (starting in mid January!)for a little while longer, and I turn 19 on Wednesday, so hopefully some good news will materialize in checking out the new barn and meeting with the trainer. If nothing else, at least I can see her (and go riding too!!!)
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
Rushtawin,
Rush I wish you nothing but luck with your filly and I hope everything turns out all right for you and your filly.
Is it just me though that hates the term natural horsemanship. Because my opinion is if you are any kind of horseman at all, you will be able to handle your horses in the correct manner, breaking them with respect and dignity, without the need to seek specially labled people who will charge you more money. Sorry just me.
teb
Rush I wish you nothing but luck with your filly and I hope everything turns out all right for you and your filly.
Is it just me though that hates the term natural horsemanship. Because my opinion is if you are any kind of horseman at all, you will be able to handle your horses in the correct manner, breaking them with respect and dignity, without the need to seek specially labled people who will charge you more money. Sorry just me.
teb
[quote="teb"]Rushtawin,
Rush I wish you nothing but luck with your filly and I hope everything turns out all right for you and your filly.
Is it just me though that hates the term natural horsemanship. Because my opinion is if you are any kind of horseman at all, you will be able to handle your horses in the correct manner, breaking them with respect and dignity, without the need to seek specially labled people who will charge you more money. Sorry just me.
teb[/quote]
I think the term is ment to differentiate from the cowboy of old just jumping on and letting them freak out till their to tired to do anything else. Rush I didn't realize she was so young, thats good as far as I'm concerened she's supposed to act that way :) But them I like the nut cases best :)
Rush I wish you nothing but luck with your filly and I hope everything turns out all right for you and your filly.
Is it just me though that hates the term natural horsemanship. Because my opinion is if you are any kind of horseman at all, you will be able to handle your horses in the correct manner, breaking them with respect and dignity, without the need to seek specially labled people who will charge you more money. Sorry just me.
teb[/quote]
I think the term is ment to differentiate from the cowboy of old just jumping on and letting them freak out till their to tired to do anything else. Rush I didn't realize she was so young, thats good as far as I'm concerened she's supposed to act that way :) But them I like the nut cases best :)
I'm in no rush to get her under saddle. If she takes to her groundwork without a problem, and understands what she's doing and learns quickly, I have no problem with starting her under saddle (as in myself or whoever I let trainer). Of course, with her age, I want her to take it easy. The vet says she should stay sound, and the farrier agreed, even at her age. I don't care, I want whoever's training her to take it easy on her.
She needs to stay sound longterm and shortterm. I don't want her legs to suffer because of anyone getting on her until she's developed enough to handle it. I'm considering even calling my vet in to x-ray her legs to see if her growth plates have closed enough, just to be on the safe side. I will be supervising whoever trains her, if I use a trainer.
I've never broke/started a horse myself from scratch, although I have been the second one in the saddle. One of the mares I used to ride had only had one person on her back who only sat there and hadn't ridden her. After two days (about an hour each time), she'd learned the leg aides I taught her well enough that she was doing a serpentine around cones I set up on a large circle and wasn't trying to run into the barn or brush me off on trees. She responded well to light hands and seemed to enjoy having me on her back, as she wasn't pinning her ears or trying to throw me. My trainer also had me riding a lot of the horses she'd just started in training.
Today, if the arena's free, I'm hoping to start her loungework again. The biggest problem I'm facing is barn management is complaining she's hard to handle. I feel it's just because they're inconsistant and not confident enough to not let her walk all over them. She has manners, as long as you insist that she remembers them. She's smart and seems to learn quickly too.
I want her getting a decent amount of turnout time. I want the barn to start listening to me as an owner. I really want to move her out of there ASAP. It's tempting to see what the trainer can do though, because he has done an excellent job with the horses I've seen him working with. A huge part of me wants to train her all by myself, at least for the groundwork. I'm not sure who to believe when they say I should start her under saddle myself. I don't know how to gauge if I'm experienced enough to start her, although I'd like to be the first one to sit on her back.
I look for a trainer to respect the horse's needs and not to use fear or force to teach them. Above all, I don't want her spirit broken. And I will be there each time to make sure that that never happens.
Anyone interested in pictures?
She needs to stay sound longterm and shortterm. I don't want her legs to suffer because of anyone getting on her until she's developed enough to handle it. I'm considering even calling my vet in to x-ray her legs to see if her growth plates have closed enough, just to be on the safe side. I will be supervising whoever trains her, if I use a trainer.
I've never broke/started a horse myself from scratch, although I have been the second one in the saddle. One of the mares I used to ride had only had one person on her back who only sat there and hadn't ridden her. After two days (about an hour each time), she'd learned the leg aides I taught her well enough that she was doing a serpentine around cones I set up on a large circle and wasn't trying to run into the barn or brush me off on trees. She responded well to light hands and seemed to enjoy having me on her back, as she wasn't pinning her ears or trying to throw me. My trainer also had me riding a lot of the horses she'd just started in training.
Today, if the arena's free, I'm hoping to start her loungework again. The biggest problem I'm facing is barn management is complaining she's hard to handle. I feel it's just because they're inconsistant and not confident enough to not let her walk all over them. She has manners, as long as you insist that she remembers them. She's smart and seems to learn quickly too.
I want her getting a decent amount of turnout time. I want the barn to start listening to me as an owner. I really want to move her out of there ASAP. It's tempting to see what the trainer can do though, because he has done an excellent job with the horses I've seen him working with. A huge part of me wants to train her all by myself, at least for the groundwork. I'm not sure who to believe when they say I should start her under saddle myself. I don't know how to gauge if I'm experienced enough to start her, although I'd like to be the first one to sit on her back.
I look for a trainer to respect the horse's needs and not to use fear or force to teach them. Above all, I don't want her spirit broken. And I will be there each time to make sure that that never happens.
Anyone interested in pictures?
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
teb wrote:Is it just me though that hates the term natural horsemanship
Yes, I did only mean the term to describe a trainer who listens to & observes the horse, then devises a game plan. Not a trainer who starts out by using a particular method because it worked on 10 other horses they trained... or *especially* not a trainer who bullies a horse into listening to them... that's all I meant by it!
We must have been posting at the same time—yes, pictures, please!
Skeenan,
I wasn't in any way slamming you. I just think sometimes people use this word too loosely and clever people advertise themsleves as natural horseman and charge higher rates to unsuspecting people. We break everything from gypsy vanner horses that haven't been touched in the first 4 years of their lives to Tb yearlings. Nothing is ever the same and the ground work is always at a different rate depending on the individual. To me it's just a no brainer situation, but i forget that a lot of places treat horses like factory products. By the way, I always feel safer on the TB's then those gypsy vanner things! They have a tendency to go through things. Never when I was on one, but have watched one plow through one of my gates because he didn't want to be in that paddock anymore!
Also, I just meant that comment as a general statement just to see what others thought.
teb
I wasn't in any way slamming you. I just think sometimes people use this word too loosely and clever people advertise themsleves as natural horseman and charge higher rates to unsuspecting people. We break everything from gypsy vanner horses that haven't been touched in the first 4 years of their lives to Tb yearlings. Nothing is ever the same and the ground work is always at a different rate depending on the individual. To me it's just a no brainer situation, but i forget that a lot of places treat horses like factory products. By the way, I always feel safer on the TB's then those gypsy vanner things! They have a tendency to go through things. Never when I was on one, but have watched one plow through one of my gates because he didn't want to be in that paddock anymore!
Also, I just meant that comment as a general statement just to see what others thought.
teb
I uploaded the filly's pics at http://community.webshots.com/user/tantalyst. Better ones will be posted if I can figure out where I put my digi cam over college break. Dave took most of the pictures from me working with her, but almost all of his came out blurry. I took all the pictures of her by herself in the stall or on the crossties.
Has anyone else encountered the following scenario... you pay the money for a full month of board and to reserve a stall so that you can move your horse within the week, only to have them call your barn and claim that you said stuff against the barn your horse is currently at? And then have the people at the current barn think that you gave them a bad rep? I walked in and found most of that out and was more than just slightly irked.
Recounting the incident with the lungewhip and lack of turnout at the current barn isn't accusing anyone of abuse.
They asked why I wanted to move the horse, so I told them. And I'm still trying to figure out how the heck they figured out I was associated with my barn... I was careful not to mention names or farm names.
I even had mentioned that it's a great place to keep horses - they're kept on an excellent care schedule with feeding, watering, and stall cleaning, just this particular barn doesn't seem to fit my particular horse's needs at this point.
Has anyone else encountered the following scenario... you pay the money for a full month of board and to reserve a stall so that you can move your horse within the week, only to have them call your barn and claim that you said stuff against the barn your horse is currently at? And then have the people at the current barn think that you gave them a bad rep? I walked in and found most of that out and was more than just slightly irked.
Recounting the incident with the lungewhip and lack of turnout at the current barn isn't accusing anyone of abuse.
They asked why I wanted to move the horse, so I told them. And I'm still trying to figure out how the heck they figured out I was associated with my barn... I was careful not to mention names or farm names.
I even had mentioned that it's a great place to keep horses - they're kept on an excellent care schedule with feeding, watering, and stall cleaning, just this particular barn doesn't seem to fit my particular horse's needs at this point.
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"