TB mare who refuses to allow farrier to trim back feet

[Bondama]

Mercedes is not JC registered. I purchased her as "grade" because she came with no papers. Her prior owner bought her as a 2yo from the breeder because she wasn't doing well with race training. In the ensuing 3 years, she was just mostly a pleasure horse until baby came along. We all know that story....no more time for the horse. She was pastured for a while prior to the decision to sell her. I have the name and city of the breeder, but have not had much success finding him to try and find out about her parentage/pedigree, etc. So, unless and until I do find this guy and if I'm ever able to get hold of any paperwork, she'll just have to stay "grade" as far as I know. If you go to this link, you should be able to see a photo of her (and my cremello stud). 'Cede is just a nice horse, and I agree with all the assessments regarding having patience with her. I feel like, over time, and with lots of attention, she'll relax.

[/img]http://community.webshots.com/album/547290509pnQfzM

[Shammy Davis]

Madelyn: My wife says I'm borderline attentive. Sorry, if I misread your post. I didn't mean to be critical, I just worry about our horses. I've seen many good intentions go astray when an owner attempts to work on a problem that is seemingly undiagnosed. No one has said this, but this mare might be in some sort of distress through her hips and back. When stretched out by the farrier, he might indeed be causing her pain. It is hard to tell without being in the barn with her. Certainly as you and I suggest, sedation is the last alternative. Probably the best advice is to have her examined by a Vet. Hopefully, a Vet can recognize the problem without sedation, too! Please forgive me if I've offended you. I value everything you have to say.

[Bondama]

SHammy, thanks for that bit of insight. If the farrier had been able to get a hold of one of those back feet to pick it up or stretch it out, and then she acted up, I might say okay. But she wouldn't even let him feel down her leg and she kicked HARD when he tried. And he did try, very very patiently, talking to her, petting her, scratching her, trying to jolly her, etc. He was extremely kind and gentle, but she wasn't having any of it. There was no chance for him to even touch a back foot with his fingertip! The vet is coming out tomorrow afternoon to have a look at her and I will run this back/hip thing by her and get her opinion.

[BJ]

My wife says I'm borderline attentive.

That's a common "male thing"

No one has said this, but this mare might be in some sort of distress through her hips and back. When stretched out by the farrier, he might indeed be causing her pain.

A couple of us mentioned that injury or long-term trauma might be at issue here. (That male "attentive" thing again )

After looking at her picture from the link Bondama posted, it *looks* like one side of her hip is dropped/hiked slightly. I have a gelding that was finally diagnosed with hunter's bump and a weakened hind end either as a result or as the cause of the injury. Hunter's Bump results from torn ligaments and the subsequent scar tissue, in the tuber sacrale area, and creates more stress and compensation on the hind legs. He previously had hock issues. But addressing the hock issues did not fix the problem. Then the Hunter's Bump diagnosis was made.

So, it could be any number of things coming from that area, causing her pain or making her afraid to put weight on an area that is hurting or weakened. My gelding used to stand like Mercedes is standing in the picture, with his affected leg almost tucked *under him* .

Shammy...totally agree with you. I'd want the Vet to check really closely in the tuber sacrale area as well as the pelvis/hip all the way down the hind legs in particular.

Bondama,

I'd try to find out if she fell or slipped at some point. Hope it is something minor. She's a very pretty girl!

Keep us posted.

[Shammy Davis]

Bondama: It's extremely hard to picture what is going on from a post and thread perspective. One of the biggest problems any equine professional has when attempting to determine the source of a problem is not knowing the health history of a particular individual. In your case, it is the same. Horses have a memory second only to the elephant. Her reactions to the farrier are probably not agressive. They sound defensive to me. Whether she has acute or chronic pain related to the hind end or back is something a Vet will have to determine. Personally, I've seen more cases like this that need only patience and attitude correction rather than chiropractic or orthopedic care. From a comformation standpoint, the back is the most overlooked part of a horse's anatomy. It is the transmission of the horse and most people don't even notice it until their horse gets saddle sore. It sounds to me like your mare has had her share of problems. I have a fair share of rescued OTTB's here and I can only wish you and your mare the best. I hope in some small way I've helped.

[Bondama]

Shammy, you are correct about the thread and post thing - I'm with you on that! The vet is coming tomorrow and I am most definitely going to bring this up in addition to her cut. The only thing that makes me initially want to rule out any back/hip issues is how she rides/handles, etc. She stands quietly for mounting, does what she's asked, w/t/c, alone or in a group. Trails nicely, except she doesn't like feeling left behind - she likes to have the rest of the group in sight...and tries to catch up if they get around a bend or behind trees or something. That's understandable and not difficult to deal with. Grooming is good, except for getting her back feet to pick them - so far I have had little success doing even that. She doesn't kick out, just pulls the foot away. Brushing the legs is okay. I am strongly inclined to agree with the general concensus that something has happened in her past to cause her to be mistrustful. All that said, however, I am having the vet look into it, if for no other reason than to simply rule it out. Vet comes tomorrow afternoon - I'll post again after that with an update. Thanks to EVERYONE for the input. This board is such a help - I'm so glad I found it!

[Nijinsky]

Sounds like a medical problem more than anything else. Of course you could get hold of the last owners and find out if they had the same problem....if she was always like that or it is new. I recently found out since I have a mare who recently started doing the same (she was perfect for the shoer before) that MARES especially broodmares tend to have this problem, obviously if she is ok with the front and not the back it is not a training problem as much as a physical one.

I was told that the best thing to do was to just have the shoer lift her hind feet up as little as possible to trim them....keeping the feet as low to the ground as he/she can. I was also told there are some cortizone shots that can be given once or twice a motnh that does WONDERS So personally I would look into WHY is she doing this before I would try a bunch of rash things to "Fix" it. My mare is being bred right now so we are hoping while she is there their vet can figure whats up and we can go from there.

Hope that helps.

[Cathy D]

Could be a training issue, could be a physical issue . . . I've run into both.

My broodmare has some OCD/arthritis in her hocks, and doesn't like her hind feet picked up. She does much better if she is supplemented on glucosamine. It is enough to make her comfortable, and seems to take care of the problem. I've also heard from the farrier that some horses with hock problems don't like having their legs flexed up to shoe or trim in the normal position, so he stretches the leg/foot behind the opposite leg to work on the foot! Sounds weird, but he says it works.

I recently had a yearling filly that gave us a fit about picking up her hind feet. I think in her case it was attitude. She was defensive and had trust issues, and came to us with stern warnings that she was a kicker. When we got her, you couldn't pick up her hind feet at all - - if you touched her leg, she fired at you. What I did was work with her so I could handle her feet. Started by rubbing her leg with a stick. She kicked at it repeatedly, but gave it up when she realized that I wasn't going away, and the stick wasn't hurting her. Then used my hand to rub her leg from gaskin to foot. Once she was comfortable with that, we graduated her to lifting her foot briefly, then built on the time her foot was off the ground from there. We didn't try to keep her foot off the ground so long that she wanted to snatch it away. From there she progressed to having her feet picked and brushed out. After that, she really didn't have a problem with trimming them. Basically, we just kept working with her and refused to fight her about it, and she came around.

[Nijinsky]

Cathy I would think a yearling would have issues due to training than would an older mare or any horse older than 3. If a yearling had never been handled or very little, of course there will be issues. But a mare who has been trained and ridden alot already and who has NO problem with her front feet SHOULDN'T....have training or handling issues.

I sure hope the vet can find out what is wrong with both our horses.

[Bondama]

Okay, had the vet out Friday to examine mare. She had to give her a shot of what she called "happy juice" to do it, though. Even so, she circled a little before she quieted down enough for the exam. The cut is a bad one, but not as bad as it could have been, thankfully. Just missed the joint said the vet. It is not infected, so with cleaning, antibiotic cream and antibiotic pills, it should heal well. Fortunately, she is showing NO signs of lameness or swelling, so I am encouraged.

As for the possibility of hip/back issues, the vet looked her over, listened to my rendition of her reaction to the farrier and said "Hooey". If she fired out at the farrier, it's her attitude and nothing more. Kind of what I thought, too. Her hips are fine, her back is fine - that was encouraging, too.

So, the cut may be a blessing in disguise, forcing us to address the handling of those back feet where we might have been unsure otherwise. Since the vet call, we have been able to at least dress the wound, without sedation, so that is something. We separated her and groomed her yesterday, although she was not ridden, we just pampered her a bit and the kids gave her treats. She really seemed to enjoy the extra attention and although clearly uncomfortable, allowed me to wash and dress the foot. So, there's a little progress amid the struggle.

I imagine that, in accordance with the general responses of the posts here, that over time and with extra attention, this mare will come around.

Thanks again to all who shared thoughts and ideas - I do appreciate them all.

[ragsdaj]

sometimes it is better to see how someone else handles a hoof problem.
On Clinton Anderson Problem Solving DVD he has a mare that wont allow anyone to touch any of her legs. Her feet look horrific.

He shows you how to fix the problem. A trainer should be able to correct this problem for you in about a week, maybe 10 days.

[WarHorse]

Arthritic stifles.

I'll bet you a dollar.

[BJ]

Arthritic stifles.

I'll bet you a dollar.

Ya know...I have a filly, just turned 4, who seems real touchy around the stifles and hind end but even a Nuke Scan turned up nada. How does arthritis in the stifles manifest/present itself "clinically"? (She also pops and cracks a lot when she moves from a standing still position.)
She's even been massaged and worked on by two chiro's...one chiro-vet.

[WarHorse]

A Dutch Warmblood gelding taught me. He pulled his hind legs back when I tried to clip his fetlocks. He had been a "problem" horse for a while, losing ground in his training (dressage). I mentioned the symptom to the vet and he palped the stifles, finding they had been cut (prior to sale to mask his lameness). Nuclear scintography confirmed the arthritis.