Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[ElPrado]

We already know he doesn't post facts. Most of his posts are pure and utter malarky.

[louis finochio]

One part of the Bull Lea story has not been explained to the satisfaction of the author, Abram Hewitt. The sons of Bull Lea were uniform failures at stud, while his daughters have made excellent records as broodmares.

This is a clear case of sex bias, which still waits a welcome explanation.

This is what i found, in the answer to your ? Mr. Hewitt.
Bull Lea had 64 crosses of FFI=Female Family Inbreeding, from his 2nd to his 6 generations. BL had 26 crosses of the great mare Pocahontas in his 3rd. to 5th. generations.

Thats why BL was a better BMS than a SOS. I copied what Mr. Hewitt inquired about, from "Great Breeders & Their Methods"

[parlo]

... This is a clear case of sex bias, which still waits a welcome explanation. ...

... had 26 crosses of the great mare Pocahontas in his 3rd. to 5th. generations.

Thats why ...

Of course, this is not true, @Louis. You should know the article of Harrison et al. on mitochodrial DNA, which is linked in other threads and is easily to find via Google. This is one step on the way to explain sex and performance in a scientific way.

And then you are not allowed to quote inbreeding to Pocahontas.

She was a roarer - an unsound horse. And do you know how many famous and unknown useless horses in present days have a multitude of crosses to Pocahontas, if you look at their pedigrees tracking till the mids of the 1850ties?


You see: it's quite vital to know the state-of-the-art of present day science and technology in order to give welcomed and trustworthy advice. You are some decades back in your excertions and expertise.


But of course, dear @Louis, you can prove your thesis and produce a scientific contribution of some importance:

Let board-members post some 20 - 30 sires that disapointed as Sire / Sire-of-Sire and excelled as BMS. And then take some 30 great sires whose sons seem to be remarble better than their daughters. And then count the number of crosses to Pocahontas in these some 30 horses.

Is there a difference in the number of crosses to Pocahontas? Don't forget to count the crosses of other important historic mares such as Beeswing, Eleanor, Miss Agnes (No. 16-family), Shepherdess (No. 5-family), etc., aswell.

There is much to do for a serious pedigree-researcher. Start right now to do some useful work!

[louis finochio]

Pocahontas adds her dominance to the clusters of FFI. Vaguely Noble, Habitat, Double Jay, Buckpasser, Round Table were better BMS than SOS. All of them had prolific crosses of FFI. Bromus the dam of Ph. has 4 crosses of Pocahontas 5 X 5 X 5 X 6 in the background of Buckpasser.
From the mare proceeds the worth.

[parlo]

This may help you to do your research proper and conceivable:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=1223 ... =10&quota=

As you can see by this example of Vaguely Noble, there are other important dams in his pedigree aswell.

Following this way and using the reliable data of sporthorsedata.com as you base of information, you have a good yardstick to compare any other sire you might mention in due course.



Btw. Vaguely Noble is a "FB" of his decade: a cross of Hyperion and Nearco, the two most important sires in those times. A comparable modern fashion-cross is ND and Mr P. or Galileo and Danehill.

.... Pocahontas adds ....

This is the usual Louis-nonsense. Have you analyzed and compared the DNA of Vaguely Noble and Pocahontas to give those verdicts?

As often before you present assumptions as fact. Only silly people do this. You should not do that any more - it's just ridiculous. You should not behave like Forest Gump any longer.

[parlo]

... and here another question: Did you read this, @Louis:

http://performancegenetics.com/2012/07/ ... /#more-668


How can you talk on "FFI" if many female families according to official stud-book don't carry that identifying genetic material which should be typical for those female families?

[ElPrado]

You need to know what it means to talk about it.

Maybe Bull Lea failed as a sire of sires because he had no Phalaris in his pedigree? It seems most successful sires of sires do.

[louis finochio]

I have been researching for 60 years, when you find prolific numbers of FFI, you will notice the colts have a henny appearance. Small head, medium conformation that resembles a filly, not a big 17h individual.

[ElPrado]

I've never seen a horse that looked like a hen in my life, and I never will. Just what have you been smoking? Valerian root?

[BenB]

Most 17 h horses, needs very much time for development,and most of them received steroids in the past. Nowadays overmedication from glenbuterol.

A medium seized horses 16 h 16.1 or so, is commonly faster matured and stays healthier on the track if guided with horse man ship.

If it is blue with a red tail, and fast I do not give a damn bit on it.

[louis finochio]

JULIA'S HERO (USA) ch. C, 2009 DP = 6-3-11-0-0 (20) DI = 2.64 CD = 0.75

Owner: CFC Stables
Breeder: Peter Mariano
State Bred: NY

JULIA'S HERO ch. C, 2009
Amdromedia's Hero---Talented Belle, by Belong to Me

JH sustained a career ending injury of his Left Front sesamoids.
JH was a type 1 FB, that carries the highest risk for injuries & breakdowns.

JH was inbred to all Ph. individuals, they were: 3 X 4 Danzig---4 X 5 RAN---4 X 4 X 5 ND---5 X 5 Hail to Reason---5 X 5 Nearctic---5 X 5 Natalma

JH had 24 crosses Ph. stallions & 18 crosses Ph. mares, both high figures.

JH had the same PH. stallions & mares that are found in those FB, that sustained career ending injuries, they are:

Native Dancer, Nashua, ND 3 crosses, Nearctic 2 crosses, Hail to Reason 2 crosses, RAN 2 crosses, Mr. P., Gold Digger, Natalma 2 crosses.

[louis finochio]

I look at 100s of tb every day, in person. Those henny looking colts are stick outs, you can see them miles away. Their FFI has stamped them for their henny appearance.

[DDT]

Louis

Gold Bear, a Fashion Bred half brother to Julia's Hero recently ran in his 42nd start and is still racing. For every Fashion Bred you cite as an example of inbreeding to one sire line by breaking down I can find several that have not followed this so-called path to doom. Why do you continue this without proof that Fashion Breds do have a higher rate of fatal or career ending injuries than Non-Fashion Breds? Your thinking it or saying it over and over does not prove that you are correct in this observation. Each and every time I have studied fatal and career ending racing breakdowns the difference between Fashion Breds and Non-Fashion Breds is slight at best and in one there were more Non-Fashion Bred breakdowns than Fashion Bred breakdowns.

DDT

[Crystal]

Having worked with this mare personally and also having the means to figure out how to work equibase/brisnet. I know for a fact this mare and most of her offspring were a mess. All of her offspring have been Finger Lake/Suffolk Downs horses at best.

I would not blame the cross of Andromeda's Hero x Talented Belle on this one.

I blame it on the fact she just isn't the kind of broodmare who even when given a shot can produce much.

Her last foal I had (the Chapel Royal) was a beautiful COLT.. He was quite strong and rugged. (Not "Henny" by one bit). However was plaqued with issues from the begining. His first steps were off a van from NY to Boston to go to the Clinic at UMASS.

Talented Artist, colicked, -rolled under the fence and took off across the road during the night. It's a wonder a truck didn't hit him.

Talented Treasure wasn't much of a racehorses and was given away.

Gold Bear is running for cheap at Suffolk Downs.

When you want to pick apart NY-breds let me know.. I foaled and raised quite a number of them.

[ElPrado]

I'm still laughing about henny looking horses. Do they have feathers?
I also don't want a 17 hand individual. Most of them are too lumbering to get out of the stall. I should know, I've owned several. The Tbred's normal size is 16 to 16.2 hands, not 17.1.