And yet the coolmore guys stepped in.
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2013/02/ ... sting.html
Louis's Blog on Inbreeding
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louis finochio
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BenB wrote:OCEANA (USA) b. F, 2009 DP = 4-1-9-0-0 (14) DI = 2.11 CD = 0.64 - 14 Starts, 1 Wins, 2 Places, 1 Shows Career Earnings: $11,760
In the distaff side from itsmyluckyday is some very interesting (heavy inbreeding to notice.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/dorothy+gray, it should not be my choice.
Louis, this is heavy inbreeding to Lexington 4x5x5x5x5, but again this was the start for the breeding of itsmyluckyday
Hi Louis,
It's also the 100th birthday of the highly influential sires Phalaris and Teddy, the former so contentious in your postings.
By any chance do you have any statistics of racetrack breakdowns from prior eras, such as the 1970s or even earlier?
Congratulations on having achieved 880 pages in your blog-like thread that's certainly a testament to fortitude if not erudition.
Regards,
Pete
It's also the 100th birthday of the highly influential sires Phalaris and Teddy, the former so contentious in your postings.
By any chance do you have any statistics of racetrack breakdowns from prior eras, such as the 1970s or even earlier?
Congratulations on having achieved 880 pages in your blog-like thread that's certainly a testament to fortitude if not erudition.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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louis finochio
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Hi Pete: I dont have any breakdown stats from those early years.but there is two indicators, that stick out. Those NP sire lines were at their peak, & our tb were averaging more lifetime starts.
When those NP sire lines went into a tail spin in the early 80s, the average starts declined sharply to the present. The more croses of NP in a 5 generation pedigree the sounder the tb. The more crosess of Ph. the more unsoundness surfaces.
When those NP sire lines went into a tail spin in the early 80s, the average starts declined sharply to the present. The more croses of NP in a 5 generation pedigree the sounder the tb. The more crosess of Ph. the more unsoundness surfaces.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
No Pete off course he does not have any reliable statistics.
He foregot to mention, the explosive use of drugs (med,s) since that timeframe, lasix, bute etc.
Nobody ever investigated the influence, from the use of two or more med,s used in the same time. The destructive part from bute on the bones, has been pointed out in scientific surveys and since 1954 it is prohited for use in humans.
He foregot to mention, the explosive use of drugs (med,s) since that timeframe, lasix, bute etc.
Nobody ever investigated the influence, from the use of two or more med,s used in the same time. The destructive part from bute on the bones, has been pointed out in scientific surveys and since 1954 it is prohited for use in humans.
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louis finochio
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LIVE SUNDAYS (USA) b. G, 2006 DP = 7-5-14-4-0 (30) DI = 1.73 CD = 0.50 - 30 Starts, 8 Wins, 8 Places, 6 Shows Career Earnings: $354,184
Owner: Hodge, Fran and Stan
Breeder: Harris Farms
State Bred: CA
Winnings: 30 Starts: 8 - 8 - 6, $354,184
at 4: 2nd Alamedan H.[Pln,8.5f], Joseph T Grace H.[SR,8.5fT]; 3rd Oakland S.[GG,6f], Sensational Star H.[R,SA,6.5FT]
at 6: 2nd Albany S.[GG,6F]
Broke down & was vanned off from race 8 at Hollywood Park 11/10/2012. Sadly, had to be euthanized due to his injury. RIP
LIVE SUNDAY'S b. G, 2006
High Brite---Thisisyourluckyday, by Rich Cream
LS was a type 2 FB, being inbred to 3 Ph. stallions, 3 X 4 Turn-to---4 X 5 Royal Charger---5 X 5 Nasrullah---to 2 NP stallions, 4 X 4 Princequillo=Prince Rose---5 X 5 Prince Rose, 2 NP mares, 4 X 5 Source Sucree=Sundridge---Cosquilla=Rock Sand.
LS had 26 crosses of NP mares, 20 crosses NP stallions. The soundness factor in this type 2 FB mating, was inherited by the balance of inbreeding to those NP stallions & mares, & the high numbers of single crosses of NP.
This is what those type 1 FB are lacking, as they have inherited all Ph. inbreeding, & prolific crosses of Ph. thru their stallions & mares.
Owner: Hodge, Fran and Stan
Breeder: Harris Farms
State Bred: CA
Winnings: 30 Starts: 8 - 8 - 6, $354,184
at 4: 2nd Alamedan H.[Pln,8.5f], Joseph T Grace H.[SR,8.5fT]; 3rd Oakland S.[GG,6f], Sensational Star H.[R,SA,6.5FT]
at 6: 2nd Albany S.[GG,6F]
Broke down & was vanned off from race 8 at Hollywood Park 11/10/2012. Sadly, had to be euthanized due to his injury. RIP
LIVE SUNDAY'S b. G, 2006
High Brite---Thisisyourluckyday, by Rich Cream
LS was a type 2 FB, being inbred to 3 Ph. stallions, 3 X 4 Turn-to---4 X 5 Royal Charger---5 X 5 Nasrullah---to 2 NP stallions, 4 X 4 Princequillo=Prince Rose---5 X 5 Prince Rose, 2 NP mares, 4 X 5 Source Sucree=Sundridge---Cosquilla=Rock Sand.
LS had 26 crosses of NP mares, 20 crosses NP stallions. The soundness factor in this type 2 FB mating, was inherited by the balance of inbreeding to those NP stallions & mares, & the high numbers of single crosses of NP.
This is what those type 1 FB are lacking, as they have inherited all Ph. inbreeding, & prolific crosses of Ph. thru their stallions & mares.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Louis
What this latest example points out is that even with tons of NP sires and dams a horse can still suffer a fatal breakdown, even on a synthetic surface. This particular horse was out for over a year indicating that he had some sort of injury or injuries prior to the year of his fatal breakdown.
DDT
What this latest example points out is that even with tons of NP sires and dams a horse can still suffer a fatal breakdown, even on a synthetic surface. This particular horse was out for over a year indicating that he had some sort of injury or injuries prior to the year of his fatal breakdown.
DDT
Hi Louis,
A few questions if I may.
Can you explain what is a type 1 FB and the difference from a type 2 FB?
You count a cross for each horse in the 5th generation (32 individuals) and consider them to be Ph if that 5th generation ancestor traces to Phalaris in it's own pedigree (whether through sire or dam line)?
Do you make any adjustment for the generation where Phalaris appears in that ancestors lineage? In other words, does it count the same if Phalaris is in that ancestors 3rd or 6th generation?
Thanks,
Pete
A few questions if I may.
Can you explain what is a type 1 FB and the difference from a type 2 FB?
You count a cross for each horse in the 5th generation (32 individuals) and consider them to be Ph if that 5th generation ancestor traces to Phalaris in it's own pedigree (whether through sire or dam line)?
Do you make any adjustment for the generation where Phalaris appears in that ancestors lineage? In other words, does it count the same if Phalaris is in that ancestors 3rd or 6th generation?
Thanks,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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louis finochio
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Pete: a type 1 FB only has inbreeding to 3 or more Ph. stallions or mares.
An example would be 4 X 4 ND---4 X 5 RAN---5 X 5 Natalma mare, all trace to the sire line of Ph.
A type 2 FB has 3 or more inbreedings to Ph. stallions or mares. A type 2 FB has inbreeding to 1 or more NP stallions or mares. A type 2 FB would look like this, 3 X 4 Mr. P.---4 X 5 Buckpasser---5 X 5 Bold Ruler---5 X 5 Tudor Minstrel=Hyperion a NP stallion, if there is more than 1 inbreedingto NP stallions & mares, it is a type 2 FB.
If a Ph. stallions appear in the 3rd or 5th generation, it is counted twice.
An example would be 4 X 4 ND---4 X 5 RAN---5 X 5 Natalma mare, all trace to the sire line of Ph.
A type 2 FB has 3 or more inbreedings to Ph. stallions or mares. A type 2 FB has inbreeding to 1 or more NP stallions or mares. A type 2 FB would look like this, 3 X 4 Mr. P.---4 X 5 Buckpasser---5 X 5 Bold Ruler---5 X 5 Tudor Minstrel=Hyperion a NP stallion, if there is more than 1 inbreedingto NP stallions & mares, it is a type 2 FB.
If a Ph. stallions appear in the 3rd or 5th generation, it is counted twice.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Hi Louis,
To clarify your last answer, each time Phalaris appears in a pedigree, no matter what generation it's in, it counts equally and once?
I assume then that this is the same as any other sire, such as Hyperion, etc.?
Are FB type 1 and FB type 2 your notations?
Lastly, is it be possible that another sire that has many appearances in the pedigree of an unsound could be the source of the problem rather than Phalaris?
Thanks for your patience.
Pete
To clarify your last answer, each time Phalaris appears in a pedigree, no matter what generation it's in, it counts equally and once?
I assume then that this is the same as any other sire, such as Hyperion, etc.?
Are FB type 1 and FB type 2 your notations?
Lastly, is it be possible that another sire that has many appearances in the pedigree of an unsound could be the source of the problem rather than Phalaris?
Thanks for your patience.
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Louis
Many times in the past I have asked you to explain why you dubbed Big Brown a Non Fashion Bred, you have stated that the inbreeding to Damascus and Round Table cancel out his Phalaris line inbreeding. According to your statement to Pete, Big Brown is a type 2 Fashion Bred. Counting the way you do, Big Brown is inbred 3X3 to Northern Dancer, 4X4 to Nearctic, 4X4 to Natalma, 5X5 to Nearco and 5X5 to Native Dancer. Could you please explain how Big Brown is not a type 2 Fashion Bred.
DDT
Many times in the past I have asked you to explain why you dubbed Big Brown a Non Fashion Bred, you have stated that the inbreeding to Damascus and Round Table cancel out his Phalaris line inbreeding. According to your statement to Pete, Big Brown is a type 2 Fashion Bred. Counting the way you do, Big Brown is inbred 3X3 to Northern Dancer, 4X4 to Nearctic, 4X4 to Natalma, 5X5 to Nearco and 5X5 to Native Dancer. Could you please explain how Big Brown is not a type 2 Fashion Bred.
DDT
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louis finochio
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Yes those type 1 & type 2 FB are my notations. When Buckpasser & Bold Ruler appear as inbreeding, they pass on their unsoundness. Unbridled's Song is another stallion that has had many unsoundness appear.
If Ph. & Hyperion appear many times in a pedigree, you must total up their crosses, to find how may times they appear.
If Ph. & Hyperion appear many times in a pedigree, you must total up their crosses, to find how may times they appear.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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