Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[Pete]

Hi BenB,

BB was under the steroids up to april in his 3yr old season, this must helped him to make an 8 career starts.

May I ask why you say this?

Pete

[Pete]

Hi Louis,

Happy Valentine's Day!

If Ph. & Hyperion appear many times in a pedigree, you must total up their crosses, to find how may times they appear.

Since you research the subject of unsoundness tirelessly perhaps it might be interesting to look at Chaucer who will appear as much
or more in the pedigrees that you research. Virtually all of the Phalaris blood that is present in modern thoroughbreds is allied with
Chaucer since all but one (Manna) of his best sons were out of mares by this sire. Furthermore, Hyperion (as well as the Phalaris sired
full-brothers, Pharamond and Sickle), are out of the great Chaucer mare, Selene. Buckpasser is a Pharamond branch sire and
(although quite distant) Unbridled's Song (and of course Mr. Prospector) are of the Sickle branch.

Is it possible that Chaucer is also a source of unsoundness? Please let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

Pete

[BenB]

Louis special written for you all about eclipse and phalaris:


http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/blog/b ... jan-stulen

[Pete]

Hi BenB,

Louis special written for you all about eclipse and phalaris:
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/blog/b ... jan-stulen

I can see why this article appealed to you.

BB was under the steroids up to april in his 3yr old season, this must helped him to make an 8 career starts.

Do you have facts or pertinent information to back up what you have said?

[BenB]

His trainer, the now banned for ten years one ( R Dutrow), has made several statements in amongst many others the drf, bloodhorse, and paulick report about the case.

In my humble opinion was this eventual leading to his banning.

But have to admit, that at that time frame, steroids were not banned and just plain legal in the US.

Louis, is thinking that FB 2,s are making more starts than FB 1,s, putting BB in the FB 2 category, has not leading to even averaging the lifetime starts, which is 18 in todays world.

[xfactor fan]

Pete,

I remember seeing a tv interview with Dutrow standing in front of Big Brown, where he said that he gave the horse steroids. I seem to remember that it was a once a month shot, and that he was going to discontinue the medication after the Derby.

I remember thinking at the time that Big Brown was a classy horse with less than classy connections, and that after watching the Belmont that there was something very off about the whole race.

[Pete]

Hi BenB,

His trainer, the now banned for ten years one ( R Dutrow), has made several statements in amongst many others the drf, bloodhorse, and paulick report about the case.

In my humble opinion was this eventual leading to his banning.

But have to admit, that at that time frame, steroids were not banned and just plain legal in the US.

Louis, is thinking that FB 2,s are making more starts than FB 1,s, putting BB in the FB 2 category, has not leading to even averaging the lifetime starts, which is 18 in todays world.

Your response clarified that you were speaking of Dutrow and not including Patrick Reynolds, the trainer who developed and started Big Brown. Thanks.

We all know that the use of steroids, like Winstrol, with thoroughbreds was commonplace and certainly overused
but I don't know that you or I or anyone can state anything about their deleterious effects as anything other than conjecture.

If we're trying to understand the impact of medications related to the soundness of thoroughbreds then I would start with Lasix.

Aside from the possible performance enhancing effects of Lasix and water loss it's supposed intention is to reduce bleeding.

We don't need to be doctors to understand that any organism pushed to the point that they are bleeding in their lungs
is working beyond their capacity and normally they should and would slow down. When, by use of Lasix,
we 'fool' their systems into ignoring this important warning sign we have them racing past their physical capacity and
that's when they would certainly be most susceptible to breaking down.

Sadly, with the 1995 ruling that allowed Lasix in New York we completed the institutionalization of bleeders and that
means that we've been accepting them into the thoroughbred breeding community for over two horse generations (~10 years).

Regards,

Pete

[Pete]

Hi XFactor,

Nice to see you again.

I remember the interview. As BenB said, it was legal then.

Regards,

Pete

[Linda_d]

Hi BenB,

His trainer, the now banned for ten years one ( R Dutrow), has made several statements in amongst many others the drf, bloodhorse, and paulick report about the case.

In my humble opinion was this eventual leading to his banning.

But have to admit, that at that time frame, steroids were not banned and just plain legal in the US.

Louis, is thinking that FB 2,s are making more starts than FB 1,s, putting BB in the FB 2 category, has not leading to even averaging the lifetime starts, which is 18 in todays world.

Your response clarified that you were speaking of Dutrow and not including Patrick Reynolds, the trainer who developed and started Big Brown. Thanks.

We all know that the use of steroids, like Winstrol, with thoroughbreds was commonplace and certainly overused
but I don't know that you or I or anyone can state anything about their deleterious effects as anything other than conjecture.

If we're trying to understand the impact of medications related to the soundness of thoroughbreds then I would start with Lasix.

Aside from the possible performance enhancing effects of Lasix and water loss it's supposed intention is to reduce bleeding.

We don't need to be doctors to understand that any organism pushed to the point that they are bleeding in their lungs
is working beyond their capacity and normally they should and would slow down. When, by use of Lasix,
we 'fool' their systems into ignoring this important warning sign we have them racing past their physical capacity and
that's when they would certainly be most susceptible to breaking down.

Sadly, with the 1995 ruling that allowed Lasix in New York we completed the institutionalization of bleeders and that
means that we've been accepting them into the thoroughbred breeding community for over two horse generations (~10 years).

Regards,

Pete

You hit the nail on the head, Pete. That's a much bigger contributor to break downs and short careers than having the same ancestor appear in a pedigree six or seven or eight generations back.

[BenB]

I am a member from clean horse racing, in this thread, i have expressed during the last eight yrs the detrimental effect from medication on horses while racing. The lasix effect is one of them, as lasix is an powerful diuretic.
The weight reduction can be as much off 28 pds within 4 hrs. But I have stated it more than just a couple of postings, that bleeding is an inherited
fault.

Masking gives an opportunity for racing unsound stock, by mating unsound x unsound = unsound produce.

[Tappiano]

And therein lies an even bigger issue, you cannot breed out bleeders if you do not know who they are.

[BenB]

Culling or weeding them 5% from the total population would be the best, but economics makes that almost impossible. 95% from the horses, racing on racedays are treated because of the economics involved.

The end of this will be an population which existed from an much more than the 5% infected.

[louis finochio]

The Chaucer male line is just about gone. Gallant Romeo, Gallant Man, Elocutionist, are rarely seen in present day pedigrees. We have lost another outcross. I havent researched the soundness of this line, so i cant comment good or bad.

[louis finochio]

Dr. Herb Warren, a good friend of mine, is using a new procedure, a nebulizer, to treat bleeders. I will ask him to explain how it works, then post it.

[Pan Zareta]

Nebulizers aren't new. They're just devices that deliver a substance in aerosol droplet form to be absorbed via inhalation, and not always the same substance in the same amount for the same reason.