Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[BenB]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebulizer

Culling and weeding out. is the only way to get rid of the problem, within 20 yrs the problem is fixed.

The only requirement is that any treatment will be prohibited.

[Pan Zareta]

Culling and weeding out. is the only way to get rid of the problem, within 20 yrs the problem is fixed.

There were a few major bleeders in the TB founder population. Bartlett's Childers was aka: Bleeding Childers, for one example. So it seems pretty unlikely that EIPH will ever be completely eliminated from the breed. It also occurs in other domestic horse breeds and in other species. The trouble with masking the problem with Lasix is that it makes it difficult to identify (and breed away from) major bleeders in the contemporary population.

[BenB]

PZ I know that in history many more horses ( males and females alike) did bled, but when you are able to notice the problem, than breeding with them is your choice in general. Masking the problems means that you are not able to identify the problems at all.

Out of the fifty contenders in last yrs breeders cup, only three of them bled as identified by endoscope, not even because the blood came out of the nostrils.

[Pete]

Hi Louis,

The Chaucer male line is just about gone. Gallant Romeo, Gallant Man, Elocutionist, are rarely seen in present day pedigrees. We have lost another outcross. I havent researched the soundness of this line, so i cant comment good or bad.

Genes are genes no matter which parent delivers them. We may presume to know some attributes that are delivered by a sire line but the same gene potential exists wherever that ancestor resides in the pedigree (notwithstanding what generation they are in).

This is not about the Chaucer male line, it's about the inheritance of traits that lead to unsoundness and if the number of times that a sire resides in a pedigree is the foundation of your hypothesis then I feel that you would want to investigate Chaucer because he's as proliferated in the blood of the modern thoroughbred (by number) as Phalaris.

Regards,

Pete

[Pete]

Hi Folks,

Masking gives an opportunity for racing unsound stock, by mating unsound x unsound = unsound produce.

And therein lies an even bigger issue, you cannot breed out bleeders if you do not know who they are.

There were a few major bleeders in the TB founder population. Bartlett's Childers was aka: Bleeding Childers, for one example. So it seems pretty unlikely that EIPH will ever be completely eliminated from the breed. It also occurs in other domestic horse breeds and in other species. The trouble with masking the problem with Lasix is that it makes it difficult to identify (and breed away from) major bleeders in the contemporary population.

Masking the problems means that you are not able to identify the problems at all.
Out of the fifty contenders in last yrs breeders cup, only three of them bled as identified by endoscope, not even because the blood came out of the nostrils.

Good points by all.

Thoroughbreds are domesticated animals in whom we breed for desirable and against undesirable traits. The ban on Lasix (that began to be repealed in the 1970s)
could not ensure that we would breed thoroughbreds that wouldn't bleed but it allowed many of those that did bleed to be culled from the breeding community.

The benefit gained by not allowing Lasix will quickly be undone (and probably already has) by allowing modern horses to compete past their real physical abilities and then accepting them into the breeding community.

Bartlett's Childers, a son of the Darley Arabian and a foal of 1716, probably passed on his bleeding but without a masking agent that trait would naturally be bred against.
30 or so (horse) generations later, Bartlett's Childer isn't the problem, rather it's the colt that would have bled and failed but didn't because of Lasix and he enters the shed after winning a prestigious stakes.
I agree with Pan Zareta that bleeding will always be a present because it's a natural reaction for some (or many) horses when they are over exerted.

The point is that Lasix is a masking agent and we do the horses and ultimately ourselves a disservice by using it. We are the wardens of the safety of these fine animals
and we fail them when we use any drugs or medications that hide deleterious conditions that ultimately put them in danger's path especially when we use them past their physical capacity.
A horse with a broken leg is a bad investment for the owner and disastrous for the animal and we should avoid anything that leads to this conclusion.

Regards,

Pete

[BenB]

I did have had a bleeder myself, bred her, but give her away as pet, after she bled severly from the nostrils as a 4 yr old.

Have to say that she was an extremely nutcase from her birth, and was extremely flighty.

[louis finochio]

DERIVE (USA) ch. G, 2006 DP = 3-6-12-1-0 (22) DI = 2.14 CD = 0.50 - 27 Starts, 9 Wins, 7 Places, 4 Shows Career Earnings: $256,504

Owner: Rick Wiest
Breeder: Stewart Armstrong
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 27 Starts: 9 - 7 - 4, $256,504

At 6: Won Phoenix Gold Cup H.(Tup,6f), Swift S.(N,TuP,5.5f), Coyote H.(N,Tup,6.5f); 2nd Caballos del Sol S.(N,Tup,6f)

Foaled May 4, 2006
Won 6 straight races at TuP
KeeApr'08:$575K
Broke down, put down in the Phoenix Gold Cup at Turf Paradise on 2/16/13. RIP

DERIVE ch. G, 2006
Cozzene---Fluttery Danseur, by Wavering Monarch

D has an outcross pedigree, with no dupe of inbreeding.
D has 15 NP stallions & 22 crossses NP mares.

There is only 16 Ph. stallions in D 5 generation pedigree, not the 23--29 crosses that we have seen in those type 1 FB. Many of those 16 Ph. stallions, dont not appear, in those FB that have sustained career ending injuries.

[BenB]

Hey , Louis is back with a couple of names.

[diomed]

Herod was a known bleeder too.

Pete, Louis will never answer you logical questions. Even if you ask nicely. He can't see beyond the sireline in genetics.

[louis finochio]

There are too many crooked stallions, being retired to stud. As they have FB pedigrees. Why would any breeder send his mares, to those crooked stallions. It is a bad move on the part of breeders.

[BenB]

Louis, breeders making the choice of sending their mares to crooked stallions, and this has nothing to do with beeiing Louis nfb or fb.

Louis ,is able to read just names, as he is not having a clou behind the names.

My old trainers always said: horses are having a pedigree, but they are not pedigrees.

I only look to them as they are, not what people say what they are.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... rug-reform

While above is nuts, 24 med,s allowed, it might help racing in the states.

[louis finochio]

Great Breeders take notice of how their superior runners were bred. They take the pedigree apart, & see if their superior runners were inbred or outcrossed. Did those superior runners have a bloodline affinity with the same families.

Were their SR colts or fillies, or both. Were those inbred SR inherit unsoundness, or did they race on. Trainers are just that, most of them would fail as breeders.

[BenB]

Louis, you are just lacking the point: Breed the best to the best and it is just like that. No more no less.

This game is about winning, and because of the winning you have to take part in the races. As little as possible.

[louis finochio]

If you breed the best to the best, you are not turning over every stone. If you dont trace the sire lines of the mare & stallion that the mare will be bred to, you dont know if your over inbreeding to one sire line.

If you mare nicks with stallion's thay have prolific crosses of Teddy, you will never find that nick, unless you trace those sire lines of the stallions.

[BenB]

Louis, you are just about to lack everything in the real world.

This rule change will save a lot of horsies:


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... aims-again