Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[Sysonby]

[
-The Mandella horse was actually I believe the son not richard.
-Most of these horses are lower to mid level claimers. With more than 8 starts this year. In several different barns. MAy of which push the envelope. Do more thorough research..

Richard Mandella
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/de ... elmar.html

And FWIW, I have heard from 2 different sources who are close friends and/or owners for 2 of the trainers on that list. Both of them told them (and they in turn told me) that there was not much wrong physically with their horses who broke down and they were as shocked and dismayed as anyone it happened. Since this wasn't for the media or the Internet, I'm not going to be more specific. But I perceive the problems at that track go far deeper than counting up Phalaris or villifying trainers.

[Tucumcari]

And FWIW, I have heard from 2 different sources who are close friends and/or owners for 2 of the trainers on that list. Both of them told them (and they in turn told me) that there was not much wrong physically with their horses who broke down and they were as shocked and dismayed as anyone it happened. Since this wasn't for the media or the Internet, I'm not going to be more specific. But I perceive the problems at that track go far deeper than counting up Phalaris or villifying trainers.[/quote]

They are suppposed to believe what they are told. They are supposed to be told the truth. Doesn't always happen.
Shock and dismay is a great thing, isn't it. Eases the pain of "whoops, I pushed too hard and your horse was swinginging a leg this morning. You did insure him didn't you?" Sounds much better to say there was nothing wrong with the horse and yep the devil racing surface claimed another. Never saw it coming.

[louis finochio]

I have sent an E-Mail to Ingrid Fermin requesting the names of those TB that have had fatal breakdowns in 06.

When this search is finished, we will find those unsound individuals that are passing on their unsoundness.

[Sam]

I have sent an E-Mail to Ingrid Fermin requesting the names of those TB that have had fatal breakdowns in 06.

When this search is finished, we will find those unsound individuals that are passing on their unsoundness.

Louis, without knowing the breakdown of EVERY SINGLE HORSE IN TRAINING, the number of times Phalaris shows up in a pedigree of a horse that broke down is IRRELEVANT.

Again, it is NOT uncommon for a breed shaping sire to show up 6-15 times in the first 10 generations of a horse. Take any horse from the 70s and I bet you find at least 6 crosses to St. Simon.

[louis finochio]

To my lady Sam: How are you this 29 of Aug/06.

In the 70s the soundness was not at the bottom of the well like it is today.

Their are too many try out matings and novice breeders try to breed the big horse. They dont have a clue how to accomplish their task.

Its time to bring in a NP cross and take these TB off those breakdown lists.

Too many crosses of the same sire line our producing weak bone individuals.

When you come to Santa Anita I will personally give you an invitation to walk through the backstretch and look at many of those spindle leg TB.

Those individuals our from a mating of too many crosses of one sire line.

Let me know when you are coming and I'll pick you up at the airport with a big black limo, champagne and all the trimings. LOL.

[BJ]

To my lady Sam: How are you this 29 of Aug/06.

In the 70s the soundness was not at the bottom of the well like it is today.

Their are too many try out matings and novice breeders try to breed the big horse. They dont have a clue how to accomplish their task.

Its time to bring in a NP cross and take these TB off those breakdown lists.

Too many crosses of the same sire line our producing weak bone individuals.

When you come to Santa Anita I will personally give you an invitation to walk through the backstretch and look at many of those spindle leg TB.

Those individuals our from a mating of too many crosses of one sire line.

Let me know when you are coming and I'll pick you up at the airport with a big black limo, champagne and all the trimings. LOL.

We interrupt these love notes between Louis and Sam for the following thought:

Perhaps if people would wait until these Phalaris lines are 3 y/o's before taxing their "soft bone", it would be proven that precocious speed does NOT necessarily equate to "early maturing". As one who has almost obsessively followed one Phalaris line, in particular, I would say, yes they have speed, but they get faster with age, and therefore are later maturing.

That's a round about way of saying, "It's the "P" in people not the "P" in Phalaris, that is to blame for most of the breakdowns today.

P.S. Louis...I don't drink so you'll have to ply ME with something else And I'm local

[wilf]

Louis be careful!!!!!! She can eat you for supper!! Now then where were we? Oh yes Phalaris and the bad-leg syndrome. Well thats been done to death on this board and you are getting nowhere, I would humbly suggest on tracing the life story of each of these poor beasts and Louis you are in a good position to get that done. I am more concerned with horse history and what they went through to get to the track, ie where they were raised and if they went through any sales and at what age they were started up.

[xfactor fan]

Along these lines, does anyone know if these horses were worth dead than alive? Unpleasant a thought as this is, people do kill horses for the insurance money, and what better way to collect than to run a sore horse?

[louis finochio]

First Samurai-----------------3 X 4 Northern Dancer----------10 crosses Ph.

Rockport Harbor-------------5X5 Olympia=Gainsborough-----7 crosses Ph.

Afleet Alex-------------------No Dupe---------------------------10 crosses Ph.

Swift Attraction--------------4 X 5 Native Dancer---------------6 crosses Ph.

Sea My Halo-----------4X4 Turn-to-----3X4 Nearctic-----------6 crosses Ph.

Araafa------------------------3X4 Northern Dancer--------------8 crosses ph.

We are now seeing some negative breeding patterns that are being witnessed as the same names are appearing over and over again.

To be continued.

[hpkingjr]

Louis stated:

Griff: Holly Bull is Phalaris free------

Holy Bull is Phalaris free so lets look at his stats:

Foals of Racing Age 624
Starters(/foals of RA) 423(68%)
Winners (/foals of RA) 293(47%)
Stakes Winners
(/foals of RA) 27(4%)
Stakes Placers
(/foals of RA) 28(4%)
Starts 5,682
Wins (/starts) 807(14%)
Placings (/starts) 1,404(25%)
Avg Earnings Index 1.69
Comparable Index 2.09

If we look at his numbers we see 68% starters, very low for the breed. Is he the root of the unsoundness in his progeny? He's pulling his mares down by an AEI of .4, is that the Phalaris free, outcrossing vigor?? If you take all his foals, 624 and divide them into his lifetime starts of 5,684, you get less than 10 starts per individual lifetime for his progeny. If we use only his starters we get about 13 lifetime starts. Is that the soundness and stamina influence that you've been speaking about? I believe that you need to research other factors as well, to prove or disprove your position. Respectfully

[Sysonby]

If we look at his numbers we see 68% starters, very low for the breed. Is he the root of the unsoundness in his progeny? He's pulling his mares down by an AEI of .4, is that the Phalaris free, outcrossing vigor?? If you take all his foals, 624 and divide them into his lifetime starts of 5,684, you get less than 10 starts per individual lifetime for his progeny. If we use only his starters we get about 13 lifetime starts. Is that the soundness and stamina influence that you've been speaking about? I believe that you need to research other factors as well, to prove or disprove your position. Respectfully

The Holy Bulls that I have seen--admittedly not a huge amount-- have been noticeably heavy animals. I distinctly remember one (Bullistic) looking like he was already at stud while he was in the walking ring at Hollywood Park! (and yes, I know about Equipoise, put this looked more inate to me) If that is a characteristic Holy Bull throws, that must be tough on their legs which may explain those stats.

Louis, since you are at the track all of the time, you are in a unique position to put the books down and look at the animals. You've must have seen dozens of Holy Bulls...are there common characteristics that might affect their overall soundness?

[parlo]

Although this discussion is getting crazy / paranoid:

What is normal in nowadays breed and what is not - in a genetically sense?

When the discussion on Phalaris started months ago in one way or the other, the "danger" was an abundance of crosses to Phalaris in excess of 10.

Now we are shown individuals with just 6-7 crosses of Phalaris and broke down, but most of the contemporary animals have this number of crosses to P and didn't break down (so far). Why don't we discuss Nearco as Phalaris' grandson and the inbreeding to him in the same way as source of unsoundness - just because of Sickle, btw. out of the same dam as mighty Hyperion?

On the other side, probably the best living tb - Hurricane Run - has 20 crosses of P - and nothing happens so far!

Some weeks ago on the thread concerning breeding-genius Tesio inbreeding to own sibblings in 5th to 8th generation was presented as an ultimate starway to success.

In German tb-forums discussions like this here often end with the rhetoric question "and how many top-horses did you breed on your own according to the advice you have given us thankfully".

[Bill from WA]

Hi

Holy Bull is not Phalaris free. He has 6 lines to Phalaris in 9 generations. He is 5x5 to Questionaire, who in turn, is 5x3 to the great Domino and 5/6/6/x4 to Himyar. Questionaire has 21 lines to the poorly conformed Touchstone within 9 genertations. Holy Bull has 10 lines to the "markedly over-at-the-knees, Bay Ronald, within 9 generations. My personal view (for what it's worth) is that problems with soundness, or breakdowns, cannot be isolated to one individual animal, but is the result of myriad contributions which include, not only pedigree, but track surfaces, training regimens, and bad luck. (Say Florida Sandy, 15 lines to Phalaris within 9 generations, 98 starts). Remember, triple crown winners Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed are all from the Phalaris sireline.

Bill

[BenB]

First of all Hurricane Run, he is not seen on dirt tracks very much in his racing life.
There seems to be a mathematical analysis corresponding weight and the amount of bone in correlating with the speed and the angular from the bones in a bend.
In our country bones are messured and the density from the bone is to be examined.
So I do think that the us and euro countries differ far too much, as for instance bleeders are really unsound animals and lasix is reported overhere as dope not as a medication.
So in the us junks are send to race.
Thats problaby one of the reasons that so many allmost untried animals are shipped to the us.
When a horse bled in the race it is always noted down the result page

[louis finochio]

Holy Bull has had 423 starters that made 5,682 starts for an average of 13 lifetime starts. That is a high number of starts in todays time.

When I make my rounds, I always look at the conformation of the TB and I can tell which stallion is the sire of those individuals.

Ch. are from Mr. P as they have a copper penny coat that gives them away.

Those liver spots near the hind end on a ch. coat are from the Princequillo-Prince John sire line.

The Northern Dancer line TB are low to the ground and have a QH blocky appearance.

The Holy Bulls Ive seen are very course and have good bone, they remind me of a stout stable pony.

The Nijinsky's sire line are high off the ground tend to be standing on stilts, as long necks go with long legs.

Hurricane Run has inherited his soundness from his ancestors that were very sound themselves. If HR had a full brother, he could be very unsound, as no two TB are alike.

When I researched the pedigrees of past champions and TC winners I didnt find any of them with 12-13 crosses of a single sire line.

As I posted before those Euro trainers are getting more mileage out of our USA TB, as their training methods are far superior than ours.

Shamardal had 14 crosses of Ph. and would have been pushed to the max in the US. Shamardal was able to make just under 10 starts because his Euro trainer spaced his races and didnt push him in the AM to break the clock.