Dennis Craig's "Thoroughbred Breeding from Cluster Mare

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy

vineyridge
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:41 am

Postby vineyridge » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:36 pm

There is another mare line that is fascinating to me. It's the 1882 Monte Rosa branch of the 8-c (Woodbine) family.

For some inexplicable reason, there are just some dam lines that keep producing daughters who can produce great race horses. Is that that they really are conduits for what the sires have to offer or that the mares themselves are superlative examples of the breed that can pass their quality on to and through their daughters?

Just as we have sires of sires and great broodmare sires, we also have dams of sires (like Selene) and dams of dams, like Pretty Polly and Aloe. I wonder if there is some genetic reason for this?
Thread Killer Extraordinaire

bonham
Suckling
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:58 am

Dennis Craig's Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares

Postby bonham » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:09 pm

I just borrowed this book through my Interlibrary Loan office (aren't I lucky? - the only copy I found on Amazon was $300). I'm not very far into it yet, but I love researchers who give credit to the dams. Besides 50% of the DNA, there is the whole, nature vs nurture thing, and isn't it the dams who raise the foals after all?
If it were not for this forum, I would not have heard of this book. Thanks!

wgc517
Allowance Winner
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:27 pm
Location: East Coast

Breeding Race Horses From Cluster Mares

Postby wgc517 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm

I've tried to find this book but have had no luck. Anyone have any suggests? How about the article summary from the Bloodhorse that was mentioned earlier in this tread?

vineyridge
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:41 am

Postby vineyridge » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:29 am

I got my copy from a used book dealer in Boston who specializes in equines.

Can't remember the seller's name, but I think I found Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares on abebooks.com. IIRC, she had several paperback copies available at the time. Mine is signed.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... &x=65&y=11
Thread Killer Extraordinaire

User avatar
Lucy
Moderator
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:44 pm
Location: Watertown, MA

Postby Lucy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:13 pm

vineyridge wrote:I got my copy from a used book dealer in Boston who specializes in equines.

Can't remember the seller's name <snip>


Was it Robin Bledsoe, by any chance? I know she sells through ABE.

http://www.bledsoebooks.com/shop/bledsoe/index.html

She also has a shop in Cambridge that's well worth a visit, if you're ever in the area.

User avatar
Patuxet
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: New England & Florida

Postby Patuxet » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:09 pm

The book is hard to come by in this country and when available tends to be pricey. A couple of years ago I tracked down a copy in Scotland through Abe Books.

Here's a signed copy at a sensible price in England. http://www.way-books.co.uk/books/detail/1484.htm
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V

vineyridge
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:41 am

Postby vineyridge » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:05 pm

Lucy wrote:
vineyridge wrote:I got my copy from a used book dealer in Boston who specializes in equines.

Can't remember the seller's name <snip>


Was it Robin Bledsoe, by any chance? I know she sells through ABE.

http://www.bledsoebooks.com/shop/bledsoe/index.html

She also has a shop in Cambridge that's well worth a visit, if you're ever in the area.


Lucy, you're brilliant. That is indeed who sold me my copy. I also bought another book from her at the same time. I think it was my copy of the last Cavalry manual in a 3 vol. set. No, I'm wrong. That came from California.
Thread Killer Extraordinaire

hpkingjr
Moderator
Posts: 1176
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 6:11 am
Location: KY

UK

Postby hpkingjr » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:07 pm

Patuxet wrote:The book is hard to come by in this country and when available tends to be pricey. A couple of years ago I tracked down a copy in Scotland through Abe Books.

Here's a signed copy at a sensible price in England. http://www.way-books.co.uk/books/detail/1484.htm


I googled the book and several popped up in the UK. I found one for 5 pounds plus shipping of 5 pounds. Good advice from Patuxet.
Give the Pope and the King of England a horse and in thirty days, they'll be stealing halters.

User avatar
Patuxet
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: New England & Florida

Postby Patuxet » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:36 pm

If anyone's in the market for a copy of John Sparkman's "Foundation Mares", here's the best deal I've seen for it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %26otn%3D2
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V

20dourmdd
Maiden Special Weight
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Ohio

Cluster mares

Postby 20dourmdd » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:10 am

Has Dennis Craig's book been revised in a newer copy? It seems that this book about cluster mares is very hard to find a copy to buy.

CosMos
2yo Maiden
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:50 pm
Contact:

Postby CosMos » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:29 pm

For those that want a copy of Breeding Racehorses From Cluster Mares I have just sourced a copy from the UK for 12 pounds. It is a 1968 reprint paperback. There is an original 1964 book for 38 pounds.

Available at: http://www.way-books.co.uk/

cheers Rich

20dourmdd
Maiden Special Weight
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Ohio

Dennis Craig's Breeding Books

Postby 20dourmdd » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:58 am

I have the book "Horse Racing" The breeding of thoroughbreds and a short history of the English turf by Dennis Craig. First Edition 1949 and second edition 1953, Third edition 1963, Fourth Edition 1982.

In this book he covers sire lines and leading stallions, dam lines and leading broadmares...he disputes Bruce Lowe and William Allison theories at the time.

I keep searching for the cluster mare book that he wrote...I hope it is a little more easy read without having to have Robertson's Theory of Male Dominance, Becker's Theory of Female Influence, Galton's Law of Ancestral Contribution, etc. you get the picture! In the end he gives 5 general conclusions of Thoroughbred Breeding. Stating categorically that "the progeny of finely bred stallions will not be very robust or sturdy if thrown by mares whose pedigree contain too much fine blood."

stancaris
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:24 am

mitochondria

Postby stancaris » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:39 am

Bill From Washington: Do you know of any traits carried in mt-DNA that have genetic functions in the racehorse other than the production of energy?

stancaris
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:24 am

pretty polly and aloe

Postby stancaris » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:26 pm

Vimeyridge: You asked above: Is there some genetic reason why certain female families keep producing outstanding descendants?

Yes, one genetic reason is the mt-DNA or mitochondrial DNA which is transmitted pretty much unchanged for 100nds of years along the tail female line. It could be that Aloe and Pretty Polly have superlative mt-DNA and their female line is so successful at least in part due to that outstanding genetic gem which keeps being transmitted along the tail female lineage.