Female Families

[Flight]

Are there certain female families that, even though they can produce stakes winners generation after generation, find it difficult to produce really good sires?

Even when mated with the best stallions do the colts sometimes fall short in performance off the track?

Reason I ask is that Niello, Lohnro's full brother, has just been retired to stud in Australia. Lohnro stood his first season last year.

Just had a look at the produce of his female line and apart from Grosvenor who was a champion NZ sire, the other offerings at stud for at least the last eighty years or so have not been what you would call successful. Yet this is one of the best female families in Oz/NZ.

Even Shadea's first foal by Danehill (Sedaka) who was a "moderate" performer has not even sired one "freak" horse which can happen from time to time.

I looked up the female family record of one of my mares last year and was surprised by the number of fillies produced overall but in a direct line could not find one really good sire going back to the 1920s. Strong family nonetheless.

Is there a basis for my assumption?

[louis finochio]

When you find breeding patterns that work you go with them, when your find breeding patterns that dont work, you will have to decide what to do to make them work.

In your case with the absence of sires not being reproduced, you must find a family that is a sire or sires that will dominate your family that is not producing a sire to carry on the male line.

Breed your mares to a stallion that is a sire of sires, and It will turn the tables on your female families that are not doing the same.

[Bill from WA]

Some better than average sire producing families and their conduit mares are:

10a Court Dress
12c Fruitful
13c Frizette
14c Pretty Polly
16a Plucky Liege
16h Fine Feathers
1c Chit Chat
1r Fricassee
1s Doxa
1w Marchetta
2d Dazzling
2f Altoviscar
2s Bill And Coo
4d Tribonyx
4m Audience
4r Artless
5h Simon's Shoes
8c Cherokee Rose II
8f Torpenhow
A29 Tokalon

Bill

[DreamersPrincess]

Bill

Does the 1s Doxa also include the 1x branch at La Troienne?

[Mahubah]

Sir Charles Leicester mentioned the 19c stirp descending from Concussion (1885) as being one that produced a good many fine racehorses that turned out disappointing sires, though Lord At War finally managed to live down the family reputation to become a good stallion.

[Bill from WA]

Hi DreamersPrincess

Yes, the Doxa conduit goes through La Troienne. Another branch by-passes La Troienne through Doxa's sister, Absurdity. This branch includes such sires as Welsh Pageant. Another branch of 1s traces to Rose Of Ayrshire (Turkoman, etc). That branch evolved in South America when Rose Of Ayrshires grandaughter, Roseray, was sent to Argentina. That particular branch of family 1s would have to go back to Filagree (1815) before it intersected with Doxa's or Asurdity's branch. This is one reason I came up with the "conduit mare" concept, to avoid confusion. You see family 1s in a pedigree, and you assume all the members are closely related, when in fact, they may not be. That's why La Troienne was re-classified as 1x by some pedigree experts, because she is so dominant. I guess I could use 1x when referring to Doxa, but technically she is 1s.

Bill

[Rick]

Your right, Doxa is tail female of La Troinne

[Bettina]

Hallo,
the branch of abovementioned mare is find in Europe via her descents Fontenay and Fontenoy, see dashing Blade. Another offspring is the sire Tiepoletto, he is in the ped of the sadly deceased German Top sire Konigsstuhl.

The Family of Absurdity comes via the strain of Picture Play in the Sire Crocket (by Rocket), who had some good offspring in Germany. This is too, the female family of User Friendly (by Slip Anchor).

best regards, Bettina

[DreamersPrincess]

Bill,
Thanks.. I understand why Doxa is correctly called 1s. I just wasn't sure if when a new branch is identified (1x) it is considered a part of the original (since 1s also exists side by side with 1x).
Kami

[Bill from WA]

1x is definitely part of the 1s family. A group of pedigree experts decided to give La Troienne her own designation at a conference a few years ago. Miles was present at the conference, and I believe it was Jeaneen Oliver (please correct me if I'm wrong) who submitted most of the information on La Troienne. She knows more about that mare than anyone, IMO. I don't know if the 1x designation is accepted everywhere, but it was added to this site.

Bill

[Pan Zareta]

I believe it was Jeaneen Oliver (please correct me if I'm wrong) who submitted most of the information on La Troienne.

That's correct, it was Janeen at the TIEC trade show, Lex, 2002

[secretariat]

interesting topic. if one would have a mare with 1-s or 1-x tail female
that has not produced lately, would one introduce more of that strain
with the stallion that has a strong female line of the same strain to reinforce that line? And also breed to a sire family that would be appropiate with the mare, conformation wise and pedigree match also.

[monicabee]

In Racing in America (the first volume), John Hervey says that the descendents of the Cub Mare (4-r) are known for producing runners, but not stallions. Then as an afterthought he mentions Nearco, a Tesio product, who had recently been sold to back to America. At the time he wrote the book (published in 1944 by the Jockey Club) his statement was true. Whether it was the return of Nearco, the many other strong stallions from the 4 family (Ribot, Graustark, His Majesty), or just one of those things, the wheel has turned and things are somewhat different now. Here are a few I could think of:

Dynaformer
Carson City (recently deceased)
General Meeting
War Chant
End Sweep
Muqtarib
Wheelaway - unproven as yet

I'm sure I'm missing someone important here...

[Bill from WA]

The line of 4r that Nearco is from, through Catnip, has very few stallions here in the US. The great German stallion, Neckar, traces to Catnip. Mizzen Mast, Level Sands, Dynaformer, and Tamayaz flow through Artless.
Bertrando, through Fernanda. Adcat, King Of The Heap, Cloud Hopping, Deputy Warlock, Eltish, and Forest Gazelle, through Lady Hubbard. Mr Easy Money, through Madcap. Carson City, General Meeting, and King Of The Mint, through Prinzessin, and War Chant, through Sainotta. To name a few. You have to way back for many of these branches to intersect.

Bill

[monicabee]

Bill - Thanks - Mizzen Mast was a major oversight!

Northfields was another 4-r stallion (top and bottom) who when sent to Ireland enriched the 4-r family in Europe. He's in a lot of US pedigrees, as well, via his daughter Northern Sunset and son Northjet who stood in America before he went to Germany. Northfields also produced a good German filly named Novelle, who was from the Catnip line. I haven't yet gotten very deep into the German part of the family. Is there a good source on this?

The 4-r family is becoming a pet project of mine. I started investigating because I have shares in an small but strongly-built filly called Now its Personal (who in her debut in January showed a great deal of grit , closing to get 4th) - and there are quite a lot of New York breds from the 4-r family. when I looked to see how closely they were related, I noted the same thing you remarked on - that I had to go waaaay back to find the connection - all the way back to Maria Slamerkin (one of the first New York breds!).

It was funny how many familiar names cropped up along the way - including my very own first horse - Jupiter, registered name Wonforme. He was tall and narrow-chested - about the only attributes he had in common with Now its Personal were an enormous amount of heart, stamina and a short back! They connect through Myrtle Harkness.

Obviously so much more goes into a horse than just their female family, but it is an intriguing way to track the connections, both equine and human, who have kept racing alive in America for over 200 years.