thoughts on this mare

[mightyhijames]

wooden angel as a breed-to-race broodmare. thanks.

[Shammy Davis]

While I deal mostly in the hunt world with our TB's, I keep my nose in pedigrees and the DRF. I remember the first thing that Joe Estes in his book "Formula for Breeding Stakes Winners" points out: Select for merit not pedigree. This mare has a nice pedigree and
has been a winner. We buy our mares off track and my first criteria is was the horse a winner and did it show good form. If the price is right and the mare is sound and healthy, I think it would be a reasonable investment.

[Matchemforever]

Well, I love the fact that there is no Mr. Prospector/Raise A Native in this pedigree and only one cross of Northern Dancer- but that has nothing to do with whether others think she is broodmare material. Can't access her race record.

Her dam, though, seems to produce a horses that can run a lot of races! Couple have earned over $100,000 but they look like they did that by running a lot. Two of them appear to be a Mr. Prospector cross.

However, the one I find interesting is:

ABOARD (USA) M 1994 LORD AVIE 22-7-1-3 $121,781

This horse ran a lot less to break that $100,000 mark and was by a Sir Gaylord line stallion, no ND or MP in there. She hasn't produced as well as her dam, however. Who knows if she was ever crossed on the right stallion?

Another half-sister Berryville, was sent to West Germany??

I'm wondering if these horses were run at their optimal distance. I'm guessing they might have liked longer races than perhaps they were run in?

This mare might be good outcross for MP lines. However, just my bias, I'd want to keep MP out of there on the chance you'd get more fillies that have outcross potential. The fact that the dam's best runner seems to have been from the Sir Gaylord line caught my eye.

But that's IMHO opinion. I just like to research pedigrees and you want a mare that can produce some winners for you.

[mightyhijames]

thanks for both responses, much appreciated. now, if i may, i'd like to segue into asking for your definitions of 'research' pedigrees? i know what i use as a very basic means of research so i'm really interested in how others who certainly seem to be much more knowledgeable than myself come up w/their opinions. i have a feeling there's 'stuff' out there that i don't know about.

again, thanks for responding.

[Shammy Davis]

I cannot recall anyone starting a thread on this board about pedigree research techniques. There are great many researchers who post. Some have written books. Some have websites. Some are professionals. Some are hobbiest. I'm in the middle.

As we are involved with foxhunting and point-to-point, my take on purchasing is fairly rudimentary at best. I guess my take on purchasing mares is best compared to being a track handicapper. Pedigrees are the last thing to look at on my list.

The controlling factors for me in order are:
1. Bargain Price = Overlay
2. Soundness/Conformation = Racing Fitness/Paddock appearance
3. Record = PP's and earnings
4. Racing Form = Pace or closer
5. Pedigree = Dirt, turf, synthetic, or slop; distance; temperament, etc.

When I look at a pedigree, I look for high quality sires and dames throughout the first four or five generations. To be honest in the more contemporary pedigrees that's not hard to do as their are fewer sires with better than 1.0 AEI's. I look for mares that have turf in their background, but if they don't, it's not a big deal. One of the key elements, I look for in the tail-female line is the appearance of at least one Blue Hen in the first seven generations or the appearance of at least two dames who are top level producers that one might project to be Blue Hen quality. The designation for Chef's & Blue Hens are well behind the times. I think you have to make some assumptions. I use to think dosage was of some value. Not anymore.

This is all very subjective. I love to handicap and I spend a great deal of time watching TVG. I recommend that you read Joe Estes' "Formula for Breeding Stakes Winners. Read Tesio also. He was not as specific in his technique so I have come to the conclusion that he just had the "eye" for good bloodstock. John Hislop's "Breeding for Racing" is very informative.

It is important to understand a little about genetics at the breeding level. With all the new research going on, I find myself at a loss. I'd like to think that it is because I'm aging, but to be truthful some of the discussion on this board are just over my head. There is a quantative side to genetic research and qualitative side. It is important as a breeder to know the difference.

Lastly, I believe that the dame side is the most important part of a pedigree. So I spend more time there. I don't disregard sires, but I make the assumption that the better sires are booked to the better mares. By purchasing off the track some of your homework is done for you because you have the performance records.

It would be interesting for someone to address the middle lines of a pedigree and their importance. Joe Estes addresses this.

You need to get Muhabah, Pedigree Ann, XFactor, etc. (if I left anyone out, which I know I did, forgive me, but my short term memory is not as good as it use to be) and the many other who spend time at this to put a better perspective on this.

[Matchemforever]

Take your question to the Mating Advice forum- I know that the research forum looks like what you want but you'll get more advice in the Mating forum from people who do breed to race. Good luck.

[Tbird]

Matchem, why are you glad there is no Mr. Prospector/Raise a Native?
Just wondering as I know nothing about this but I thought Mr. P was one of the great producers, etc., etc.
Is there too much of him around? Better on top than on bottom?
And what is it about Raise a Native?
Trying to get educated.
Thanks.
Karen

[vineyridge]

If you can get hold of Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares (1964) by Dennis Craig, he has some very interesting things to say and the research to back up his theories.

[Matchemforever]

Tbird,

I'm just a pedigree junkie.

That said, I'm one of those that thinks there is too much Mr. Prospector and Native Dancer in TB pedigrees these days. That's IMHO.

Mr. Prospector is by Raise A Native and the RAN's have a reputation for unsoundness.

But ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers. It's not that all the RAN's are unsound.

[Tbird]

Thanks, Matchem. Another reason I asked is because I have a gelded grandson of Mr. P. Came off track sound but he sure has high-maintenance feet.

[Matchemforever]

Yeah, I had a granddaughter of Mr. Prospector and she had foot problems (bone) after being green broke at three. (Not for the track) We got her going again but geeez, she only had two weeks of light work.

[mightyhijames]

okay, just ordered all the suggested reading. hopefully, i'll be able to understand and successfully put to use all this new-found information. thanks to all.

[Firebrand]

I think Wooden Angel has potential as a broodmare. She is by an emerging broodmare sire (see article below) and she has the blue-hen mare Missy Baba up close. She also has an interesting pedigree pattern with influential ancestors My Babu, Lavendula, Nearco, Tracery, Mumtaz Mahal and Alibhai (just to name some) each represented through both a son and daughter. And as an added bonus, her pedigree also contains La Troienne's half sister. Just to toss out an idea, breeding Wooden Angel to Sky Mesa, who descends tail-female from La Troinenne, would reinforce many of the strong individuals listed above, plus Knight's Daughter through Round Table and Monarchy. (Check out the pedigree at least to the 6th & 7th generation. It's nice.)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... lor=000000

Here's an article about Langfuhr as a broodmare sire from the Nov. 2008 Blood-Horse Marketwatch (Alan Porter/True Nicks) -
Rock-solid as a sire, Langfuhr (Danzig – Sweet Briar Too, by Briartic) is now shaping up as a very promising broodmare sire. He has six stakes winners to date, and has really come to the fore this year with his daughters being represented by Eclipse Award candidate Proud Spell and Augusta Proud (AUS), a group winner in Australia.

Two of his stakes winners, including Proud Spell (by Proud Citizen, a son of Gone West), are by Mr. Prospector-line sires; Augusta Proud is by More Than Ready; and there are also stakes winners by Jump Start (by A.P. Indy), Robb (by Strawberry Road (AUS), from the Nijinsky II line), and Delaware Township (by Notebook, from the Raja Baba branch of Bold Ruler). It’s well worth remembering that Langfuhr has covered relatively modest mares for most of his career, meaning that his daughters tend not to have been bred to the most expensive stallions.

As a broodmare sire through 2008, Langfuhr has 55 runners, 33 winners, 5 stakes winners, 1 graded stakes winner, 1 GR1 stakes winner, an AEI of 3.75 to a Comp. AEI of 1.547.

[mightyhijames]

I think Wooden Angel has potential as a broodmare. She is by an emerging broodmare sire (see article below) and she has the blue-hen mare Missy Baba up close. She also has an interesting pedigree pattern with influential ancestors My Babu, Lavendula, Nearco, Tracery, Mumtaz Mahal and Alibhai (just to name some) each represented through both a son and daughter. And as an added bonus, her pedigree also contains La Troienne's half sister. Just to toss out an idea, breeding Wooden Angel to Sky Mesa, who descends tail-female from La Troinenne, would reinforce many of the strong individuals listed above, plus Knight's Daughter through Round Table and Monarchy. (Check out the pedigree at least to the 6th & 7th generation. It's nice.)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... lor=000000

Here's an article about Langfuhr as a broodmare sire from the Nov. 2008 Blood-Horse Marketwatch (Alan Porter/True Nicks) -
Rock-solid as a sire, Langfuhr (Danzig – Sweet Briar Too, by Briartic) is now shaping up as a very promising broodmare sire. He has six stakes winners to date, and has really come to the fore this year with his daughters being represented by Eclipse Award candidate Proud Spell and Augusta Proud (AUS), a group winner in Australia.

Two of his stakes winners, including Proud Spell (by Proud Citizen, a son of Gone West), are by Mr. Prospector-line sires; Augusta Proud is by More Than Ready; and there are also stakes winners by Jump Start (by A.P. Indy), Robb (by Strawberry Road (AUS), from the Nijinsky II line), and Delaware Township (by Notebook, from the Raja Baba branch of Bold Ruler). It’s well worth remembering that Langfuhr has covered relatively modest mares for most of his career, meaning that his daughters tend not to have been bred to the most expensive stallions.

As a broodmare sire through 2008, Langfuhr has 55 runners, 33 winners, 5 stakes winners, 1 graded stakes winner, 1 GR1 stakes winner, an AEI of 3.75 to a Comp. AEI of 1.547.

wow. to me, that's a lot of information to digest and process, which i will do. thanks very much for the input.

[Firebrand]

That was the Reader's Digest condensed version.