Dennis Craig suggests that it isn't necessary to use the big winners as sires to get winners, but that siblings will often do just as well or better-thus saving on stud fees.
I've just learned of a couple of stallions who are interesting under that premise, but I have no idea how many chances they were given to breed race horses. One is a son of Whitesburg, who was by Crimson Satan (Balladier line). Another is aged--an unraced son of Stage Door Johnny out of Bebopper by Tom Fool. I know the latter has some not good race horses to his discredit, but if he didn't have many chances, wouldn't the law of averages come into play?
If you had a mare whose pedigree would seem to click with one or the other of these guys, would you be willing to use them even if they either weren't very good themselves or didn't have a promising production history?
This is purely hypothetical, although I do wish that someone with a nice mare (possibly by Broad Brush) would try the Whitesburg son just for line preservation purposes (genetic diversity, don't you know.) I would love to see the Balladier/Himyar lines preserved for the future through more than just Broad Brush.
Hypothetical--breed to genes or immediate performance?
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vineyridge
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Hypothetical--breed to genes or immediate performance?
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In answer to your main question, no I wouldn't.
When I factor in the cost of a mare, the cost of her upkeep, the vet bills that breeding engenders, risk of foaling, cost of maintaining a foal, raising it, training it, and getting it to the racetrack, I just can't see any compelling reason to use stallions who "either weren't very good themselves or didn't have a promising production history".
And to do so as a way to save on stud fees? No way. By the time you add everything up, the stud fee is usually not the biggest expense a breeder incurs. Succeeding in racing is hard enough without narrowing your chances before you even start.
When I factor in the cost of a mare, the cost of her upkeep, the vet bills that breeding engenders, risk of foaling, cost of maintaining a foal, raising it, training it, and getting it to the racetrack, I just can't see any compelling reason to use stallions who "either weren't very good themselves or didn't have a promising production history".
And to do so as a way to save on stud fees? No way. By the time you add everything up, the stud fee is usually not the biggest expense a breeder incurs. Succeeding in racing is hard enough without narrowing your chances before you even start.
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jrgators
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LB wrote:In answer to your main question, no I wouldn't.
When I factor in the cost of a mare, the cost of her upkeep, the vet bills that breeding engenders, risk of foaling, cost of maintaining a foal, raising it, training it, and getting it to the racetrack, I just can't see any compelling reason to use stallions who "either weren't very good themselves or didn't have a promising production history".
And to do so as a way to save on stud fees? No way. By the time you add everything up, the stud fee is usually not the biggest expense a breeder incurs. Succeeding in racing is hard enough without narrowing your chances before you even start.
I agree many times over! The cards are already stacked against you! Avg stallion...68% starters 54% winners.
In my short career as a breeder, I've made some smart decisions, and I've made some that were not very smart at all. Emotionally made ones are never smart ones! Don't do anything in this business for the sake of anything other than it makes sound business sense! Nothing worse than looking in your field and seeing $10,000 wasted!
Best of luck with whatever you decide!
Theo
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One of the things to look at is how hybrid the famous sibling is vs how inbred the sibling is.
Fact of nature hybrids NEVER breed true. Lets say for an hypothetical example, that to be a classic winner a horse needs 32 sprinting chromosomes and 32 staying chromosomes. And this particular horse was bred by crossing a sprinting sire with a staying mare, and the ratio worked out for the classics.
When breeding, this horse is going to hand on a random mix of staying and sprinting chromosomes. Sometimes it will be 1 sprint and 31 staying, other times it could be 31 sprinting and 1 staying. Or something inbetween. How do you plan a mating under these conditions?
From the same cross as the Classic winner, you might have a horse that was more sprinter, or more stayer, and more likely to pass on a uniform set of chromosomes.
Which actually might have been what Tesio was on to when he bred to siblings of great race horses. Nothing to do with race horses using up there life energy at all.
Fact of nature hybrids NEVER breed true. Lets say for an hypothetical example, that to be a classic winner a horse needs 32 sprinting chromosomes and 32 staying chromosomes. And this particular horse was bred by crossing a sprinting sire with a staying mare, and the ratio worked out for the classics.
When breeding, this horse is going to hand on a random mix of staying and sprinting chromosomes. Sometimes it will be 1 sprint and 31 staying, other times it could be 31 sprinting and 1 staying. Or something inbetween. How do you plan a mating under these conditions?
From the same cross as the Classic winner, you might have a horse that was more sprinter, or more stayer, and more likely to pass on a uniform set of chromosomes.
Which actually might have been what Tesio was on to when he bred to siblings of great race horses. Nothing to do with race horses using up there life energy at all.
This falls under the "you are not your brother" heading, in my book. Full siblings will, at the most, have 50% of their chromosomes in common. Take, for example, a great horses's full brother who couldn't catch the ambulance. That full brother likely does NOT have the great horse's DNA combination that made that horse great. Breeding to the dog-slow sibling has its own predictable result.
LB's got it right, the stud fee is usually the LEAST single expense of those involved in breeding and raising a racehorse.
If you REALLY want to save on stud fees, get yourself a really good mare. Pick a really fantastic cross and call the stud farm and negotiate.
LB's got it right, the stud fee is usually the LEAST single expense of those involved in breeding and raising a racehorse.
If you REALLY want to save on stud fees, get yourself a really good mare. Pick a really fantastic cross and call the stud farm and negotiate.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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Shammy Davis
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vineryridge posted: .
Sometime back I remember the same conversation about a Round Table stallion whose book never got going.
I think you have a good point, but it is not something that should be considered by those who breed to sell and/or race. The $$ expenditure to maintain a mare is considerable. Once the foal is on the ground, you have the problem of where to go with it.
You know this board has tunnel vision because it primarily talks in terms of conventional horseracing. We forget that the thoroughbred industry includes various other disciplines. Our farm is involved in hunt and point to point. There are a number of farms across NA who focus in that area. For the preservation of particular lines or to experiment with different disciplines, it might be a good idea to focus some attention on the under acheiving stallion in those directions. It makes good sense and like the OTTB program opens doors for TB lines to flourish.
As TB breeders we need to have a broader view of what can be accomplished by some of these so-called under acheiving lines. One stallion I'm familiar with, considered an under acheiver, was TEMPERENCE HILL, the sire of the great steeplechaser SAM SULLIVAN. I have a young mare by the underacheiving French stallion PASSING SALE, who sired the 2009 English Grand National Winner. TEMPERENCE HILL died in Thailand and fortunately his STOP THE MUSIC line had other sires. PASSING SALE was 1987 foal so his time is limited.
Muhabah in another forum worried that the sports world was not embracing horseracing. I think she has a good point, but we are the ones at fault because we continue to support a fragmented industry that does very little to support some of the smaller TB venues.
Vineryridge has reason to be concerned. We all do. It is not a bad idea to give some thought to this issue not from the $$ but for the continued health of the breed.
Louis' thread on "inbreeding" drives me crazy, not because I don't think it worth considering, but because of his continued violations of research ethics. We certainly don't want the breed to get a point that it has no options. Some of the smaller venues might be the answer.
. . This is purely hypothetical, although I do wish that someone with a nice mare (possibly by Broad Brush) would try the Whitesburg son just for line preservation purposes (genetic diversity, don't you know.) I would love to see the Balladier/Himyar lines preserved for the future through more than just Broad Brush.
Sometime back I remember the same conversation about a Round Table stallion whose book never got going.
I think you have a good point, but it is not something that should be considered by those who breed to sell and/or race. The $$ expenditure to maintain a mare is considerable. Once the foal is on the ground, you have the problem of where to go with it.
You know this board has tunnel vision because it primarily talks in terms of conventional horseracing. We forget that the thoroughbred industry includes various other disciplines. Our farm is involved in hunt and point to point. There are a number of farms across NA who focus in that area. For the preservation of particular lines or to experiment with different disciplines, it might be a good idea to focus some attention on the under acheiving stallion in those directions. It makes good sense and like the OTTB program opens doors for TB lines to flourish.
As TB breeders we need to have a broader view of what can be accomplished by some of these so-called under acheiving lines. One stallion I'm familiar with, considered an under acheiver, was TEMPERENCE HILL, the sire of the great steeplechaser SAM SULLIVAN. I have a young mare by the underacheiving French stallion PASSING SALE, who sired the 2009 English Grand National Winner. TEMPERENCE HILL died in Thailand and fortunately his STOP THE MUSIC line had other sires. PASSING SALE was 1987 foal so his time is limited.
Muhabah in another forum worried that the sports world was not embracing horseracing. I think she has a good point, but we are the ones at fault because we continue to support a fragmented industry that does very little to support some of the smaller TB venues.
Vineryridge has reason to be concerned. We all do. It is not a bad idea to give some thought to this issue not from the $$ but for the continued health of the breed.
Louis' thread on "inbreeding" drives me crazy, not because I don't think it worth considering, but because of his continued violations of research ethics. We certainly don't want the breed to get a point that it has no options. Some of the smaller venues might be the answer.
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Shammy Davis
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Is this your Whiteburg's stallion?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/whitesville2
It looks like the blood is already circulating a little.
As far as the law of averages w/SDJ, he was all stamina. He and Bebopper were not too productive. Bebopper was very productive w/Axe and one excellent product w/HTR.
As for my previous post, a son of SDJ might be a good producer in stamina oriented events like hunt and point to point. If his progeny were small enough, Polo loves Thoroughbreds.
I've been reading a number of dated books on breeding for racing. One of the key elements that continues to come up time after time is the blending of bloodlines. Prepotency is encouraged by inbreeding and though I didn't check, it is possible that SDJ and Bebopper were not suited for each other. Many of the most productive lines were based on duplication of specific mares which is an intriguing thought.
Bruce Lowe's system is out of fashion but I recently read that he considered Families 1,2,4, & 5 as racing families. He designated familes 3,8,11,12, & 14 as the best sire families.
Bahram's family was 16. I guess if you believed in BL's system that is not good news.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/whitesville2
It looks like the blood is already circulating a little.
As far as the law of averages w/SDJ, he was all stamina. He and Bebopper were not too productive. Bebopper was very productive w/Axe and one excellent product w/HTR.
As for my previous post, a son of SDJ might be a good producer in stamina oriented events like hunt and point to point. If his progeny were small enough, Polo loves Thoroughbreds.
I've been reading a number of dated books on breeding for racing. One of the key elements that continues to come up time after time is the blending of bloodlines. Prepotency is encouraged by inbreeding and though I didn't check, it is possible that SDJ and Bebopper were not suited for each other. Many of the most productive lines were based on duplication of specific mares which is an intriguing thought.
Bruce Lowe's system is out of fashion but I recently read that he considered Families 1,2,4, & 5 as racing families. He designated familes 3,8,11,12, & 14 as the best sire families.
Bahram's family was 16. I guess if you believed in BL's system that is not good news.
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vineyridge
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Yes, Whitesville is the Whitesburg.
I wouldn't worry about family 16, since it is the Agnes family and the family of Plucky Liege, who was actually Bahram's great aunt. It's still kicking on as one of the truly great dam lines. In fact, it might have been the Agnes family that started Bruce Lowe on his work. It's also the family of Sceptre. I'd say that 16, even with the new genetic split of part of it, is still a wonderful family for breeding quality--and has been continuously so for centuries.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/ ... ily16.html
Of course I'm prejudiced, since I have a mare who is 16-h.
I wouldn't worry about family 16, since it is the Agnes family and the family of Plucky Liege, who was actually Bahram's great aunt. It's still kicking on as one of the truly great dam lines. In fact, it might have been the Agnes family that started Bruce Lowe on his work. It's also the family of Sceptre. I'd say that 16, even with the new genetic split of part of it, is still a wonderful family for breeding quality--and has been continuously so for centuries.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/ ... ily16.html
Of course I'm prejudiced, since I have a mare who is 16-h.
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Shammy Davis
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Vineryridge: I don't know whether you remember this, but some years ago Ellen Parker who sponsors the "Blue Hen" website made a big deal about maintaining SPY SONG in a tail-male position.
IL is a reach for me, but if Whitesville had some solid mare duplication, I take a chance on him. I'm in a better position to gamble because we're not restricted by the "breed to race/sell" parameters.
As I recall, Whitesville is a 1993 foal. There is still time.
Michael Miller in his " . . . BREED A RACEHORSE" speaks about "return of blood." I think this is an important concept that we don't often hear about in the comtemporary TB market.
I believe in this concept because as a Chesapeake Bay Retriever breeder for many many years, I've used this inbreeding formula. It encourages pre-potency. It is normally highly sucessful. It is also dependent on strong bitch lines or mare lines, if you like.
The new or fresh blood argument will have to play itself out on another forum and thread, but in every book I've read on breeding, the writers always warn that the introduction should be with very successful blood.
Miller, in 1939, makes the case that the return of female line blood is advisable when a mare has not proved successful at stud. Mason suggests in this case that a stallion carrying the mare's line blood is advisable to use.
My experience w/gun dogs tells me he is spot on.
IL is a reach for me, but if Whitesville had some solid mare duplication, I take a chance on him. I'm in a better position to gamble because we're not restricted by the "breed to race/sell" parameters.
As I recall, Whitesville is a 1993 foal. There is still time.
Michael Miller in his " . . . BREED A RACEHORSE" speaks about "return of blood." I think this is an important concept that we don't often hear about in the comtemporary TB market.
I believe in this concept because as a Chesapeake Bay Retriever breeder for many many years, I've used this inbreeding formula. It encourages pre-potency. It is normally highly sucessful. It is also dependent on strong bitch lines or mare lines, if you like.
The new or fresh blood argument will have to play itself out on another forum and thread, but in every book I've read on breeding, the writers always warn that the introduction should be with very successful blood.
Miller, in 1939, makes the case that the return of female line blood is advisable when a mare has not proved successful at stud. Mason suggests in this case that a stallion carrying the mare's line blood is advisable to use.
My experience w/gun dogs tells me he is spot on.
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vineyridge
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I thought one of the oldest maxims in horse breeding--or maybe formulas--is "Return to the sire the best blood of his dam." Although it sounds rather Zen to me, since someone has to determine which is the best blood of the dam it goes along well with the Miller theory that you cited.
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vineyridge
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Hey vineyridge...thanks again for mentioning these guys!!
I'd love to get some mares covered by Whitesville in early 2010. If someone has some nice mares, I'll make it worth their while to get them to IL for breeding.
On that note, the Stage Door Johnny son is just a couple of hours away from me, and from what I am told, he is doing REALLY well. They joke that he is 2.4 years old, not 24. Quite a character that one.
I'd love to get some mares covered by Whitesville in early 2010. If someone has some nice mares, I'll make it worth their while to get them to IL for breeding.
On that note, the Stage Door Johnny son is just a couple of hours away from me, and from what I am told, he is doing REALLY well. They joke that he is 2.4 years old, not 24. Quite a character that one.
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Shammy Davis
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Shammy Davis
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