Byerley Turk - small correction

[russianhorses]

Hi,

I just read that the information on Byerley Turk says "Most likely was an akhal teke".

This cannot be the case. The Akhal-Teke breed is relatively young (some 130 years only) and was created by the Russian/Soviet conquerors of Turkmenistan after 1881. The breed name was invented by Russians around that time, and what today is known as "Akhal-Teke" is by now mostly a mixture of a broad variety of Turkoman breed strains plus English Thoroughbreds, some Arabians, some warmbloods and some known Yamoud horses, based on what was left over after the wars and what the Russians crossed these Turkoman horses with.

So, the correct denomination for Byerley Turk is that he most likely was a "Turkoman Argamak".

Before the Russians invaded Turkmenistan all horses bred there were described as "Turkoman". Some distinct, tribe-related breed strains existed, but were - inspite of that - bred to each other. "Argamak" describes a special kind of tall and hardy Turkoman horse which was bred to be the warhorse of the more belligerent tribes (those were not just the Akhal-Teke, and even there e.g. the Teke main tribe had 5 major and some 2 dozen minor subtribes).

That he belonged to that special sub-division of the Turkoman is highly likely, as it were the Argamaks which were much sought after all over Centralasia for their stamina and ability to serve as aggressive, fearless warhorses. A lot of them made it into Turkish, Persian and Syrian cavalries and royal studfarms, and quite a few also to Europe and India.

Liz

[xfactor fan]

Liz,

Great information. And it sounds correct.

Most folks however don't know, or understand that there were many strains of Turkoman horses, and lump everything under the blanket of Akhal-Teke.

Doesn't make it right, but it is easier.

Do you know if there are photos of some of these early Turkoman horses anywhere?

[russianhorses]

Hi xfactor,

I believe I can rustle up some pictures of Turkoman horses imported into France in 1830/1850 or so and yes, there are also a couple of photos around of such Turkoman horses which were used to start off the Akhal Teke breed born somewhen between 1850 and 1900. Give me a day or so

I really suggest someone changes the text for Byerley Turk, as it definitely cannot be true (as a fact per se) and as it will create a wrong impression (both for those who know it can't be the case, and for those who wish to know about Byerley Turk). That sentence should read:

"He most likely was a Turkoman Argamak."


Liz

[diomed]

I would love to see pics of those horses.
I am with you guys on this. I believe the Strain of Turkoman that the Byerly Turk was has been absorbed into the TB breed itself.
There were other as well. I believe this anyways.
Place's White Turk, Darcy's Yellow Turk, etc. Very heavily used in the early formation of the Thoroughbred.

[aethervox]

I really suggest someone changes the text for Byerley Turk, as it definitely cannot be true (as a fact per se) and as it will create a wrong impression (both for those who know it can't be the case, and for those who wish to know about Byerley Turk). That sentence should read:

"He most likely was a Turkoman Argamak."


Liz

I would add a little bit more of a description (e.g. the Argamak was used as a war horse...) or give a link pointing to info about the Argamak or Turkoman horses in general, but I agree, for what it's worth.

[russianhorses]

Hi,

here are the Turkoman horses imported to France around 1830/1840:



Here a horse also from roughly 1850:



This is an Argamak stud stallion of around 1900:



Another such stallion, same era:



This is an Argamak-style Akhal Teke of known ancient and pure Turkoman lineage of around 1950:




Liz

[xfactor fan]

Wow, what great photos.

I'm working on a study of conformation inherentace, may I have permission to use these?

The gray has the same front end as Man O' War. High withers, high head carriage.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/70 ... -_2big.jpg


Also the sharp angle of the rump--

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/60 ... -_2big.jpg



Take a look at the withers and chest of the guy under saddle, then look at Medaglia D'Oro.


http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10551518


I've always thought there was a lot more Turkoman in the Thoroughbred than Arab, and this sure helps confirm that theory.

[russianhorses]

Hi,

yes, there definitely were a large number of Turkoman horses among the foundation stock, the majority of them thought to be Arabians. Practically every horse with a dilute factor and also those with lots of white can safely be assumed having at least some Turkoman blood. Additionally the so-called Persian Arabians were a cross of Turkoman and Arabian horses, and the Muniqi strain Arabians also contained huge amounts of Turkoman blood.

The grey guy was raced (meaning he was raced under a jockey sitting upright, with long stirrups across a stone-ridden sand track at roughly 50 degrees Celsius):

1200m - 1.19,5 (record); 1500m - 1.45; 1600m - 1.51,5; 1800m - 2.08,2

Regarding the photos you get a PM.

Liz

[madelyn]

This is just FASCINATING - like a Eureka moment. GREAT photos. Thanks for sharing.

I wish I could find something like that about the Godolphin Barb.

[diomed]

Thank you for posting those photos!!!
I agree. Fascinating indeed!
I so agree about the so called Arabians being of heavy Turk blood. The Darley Arabian was believed to be of Munique(sp?)blood, an Arabian strain heavily crossed with Turkoman.

It is my belief that the TB is basically a cross of Turkoman/Barb and there is much less true Arabian in the breed than was originally believed.
All you have to do is look at the conformation for comparison.
I still, however, think that the speed of the TB/QH comes from Barb origins...
But that is just my opinion. LOL

[diomed]

This is just FASCINATING - like a Eureka moment. GREAT photos. Thanks for sharing.

I wish I could find something like that about the Godolphin Barb.

I hear that. I have been obsessed with the Godolphin Barb(I WILL NOT call him Arabian)for decades.
Such a major breed shaping influence he was. I look at the many portraits of the horse and still believe he was not Arabian nor Turk. But looks very Spanish to me. My bet is BARB. Probably a specimen or Type that no longer exists in it's true pure form.
I have tried to find pictures of true barbs....They are very hard to find.

[russianhorses]

Hi,

here two photos, a Muniqi mare and a Muniqi stud, both around turn of the last century, possibly earlier.





It is pretty clearcut where these horses got their looks. Additionally, and what Arabian breed fans do not like to hear , it is by now pretty much proven (by Louise Firouze's and Gus Cothran's work) , that the Arabian was mainly the result of interbreeding of the Caspian and the Turkoman breeds. But - shhhhh - don't tell anyone

Liz

[diomed]

Tell me if I am right about this. LOL
But I seem to recall that the Turkoman horse was a Steppe horse bred for war for Ottoman warriors. The horse was TALL and built to travel in that environment(Steppe, not Desert). From some sources I seem to recall that they were impressive specimens because of their size.
The Arabian horse was a desert horse. Totally different terrain.

[madelyn]

Wow, that Muniqi stallion - I think I see a similarity between him and the Unbridled line - those very "front-mounted" forelegs...

[russianhorses]

Hi,

errrr, hmmm, not exactly

The Turkoman horses definitely were taller than the Arabian, the reason for which being their genetic derivation from a different proto-breed strain.

The Caspian horse came into existence and lived not exactly far from where the Turkoman breeds evolved, but instead - as it was from another proto-breed strain - was a smallish horse (12hh) looking almost like the current desert Arabian. The Caspian had been used as a chariot race/warhorse mostly by the Persian people, the Turkoman horses as Argamaks and nomad horses by the Turkmenian nomads and their forerunners.

Both areas join geographically and there the early Arabian evolved, often referred to as the Persian Arabian, but actually in existence well before the Arabs decided they wanted horses instead of camels.

The desert Arabian is the most recent development and happened well *after* the Arab tribes plundered Centralasia and retreated into the desert again with their newly "acquired" horses. They did continue to buy and steal Turkoman and Persian horses all throughout time though, which is the background for the Muniqi strains, which are much closer to the early Persian Turkoman-Caspian cross.

The Ottomans had nothing to do with the development of the Turkoman breeds. They came much, much later timewise and even for them Centralasia was no-go country for them regarding the horsebreeding warrior nomad tribes. They did buy Turkoman horses though, and much against what a certain British Lady presumed to invent, the horses they prided themselves on were not Arabians, they were Argamaks. Often the only way to get those was to hire the nomad mercenaries riding them.

Liz