From a sport horse point of few

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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Elles
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From a sport horse point of few

Postby Elles » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:12 am

What do you think of this pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stowaway+filly

Elles
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Postby Elles » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:58 am

Could someone please tell me what Norther Dancer, Danehill and Storm Bird have done for sport horse breeding?
The horse I am talking about has this type of linebreeding:
Horse Inbreeding Stats Crosses Lines Blood% Influence AGR
STORM BIRD 3s x 4D 2 2 (1) (1) 18.75% 3x4 21.92%
NORTHERN DANCER 5S x 7S x 4S x 5D 4 3 (3) (0) 13.28% 4x4 15.58%
CREPELLO 8s x 4D x 5d 3 3 (1) (2) 9.77% 4x5 9.77%
NATALMA 6S x 6s x 8S x 5S x 6D 5 2 (1) (1) 8.20% 5x5 9.13%
DONATELLO2 9S x 8s x 5D x 6D x 9d x 7d x 6D 7 5 (2) (3) 7.81% 5x5 2.93%*
HYPERION 8s x 8S x 7S x 7s x 9S x 7d x 8d x 8D x 6d 9 7 (4) (3) 5.66% 5x6 5.76%*
NATIVE DANCER 7s x 7s x 9s x 6s x 6S x 7d 6 2 (1) (1) 5.66% 5x6 5.66%*
NEARCO 7S x 9S x 9S x 9s x 6S x 8S x 7D x 9D x 9D x 8d x 8d 11 7 (4) (3) 5.27% 5x6 5.49%*
BLENHEIM2 9S x 9S x 9S x 8S x 9s x 9s x 6D x 7D x 9D x 9D x 8D x 7D 12 4 (2) (2) 5.27% 5x6 0.20%*
GAINSBOROUGH 9S x 9S x 8S x 8S x 9s x 9s x 8D x 9d x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 7D 13 5 (2) (3) 3.91% 6x6 0.54%*
VIMY 5d x 7d 2 2 (0) (2) 3.91% 6x6 4.37%
BLANDFORD 9S x 9s x 9S x 7D x 8d x 8D x 8D x 9d x 9D x 8D 10 6 (3) (3) 3.32% 6x6 0.78%*
SELENE 9S x 9S x 8S x 8S x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 7D 9 2 (2) (0) 2.93% 6x7 0.20%*
BULL PAGE 8s x 6S x 7D 3 2 (1) (1) 2.73% 6x7 2.73%
BULL LEA 9S x 9s x 7S x 8s x 8s x 8D x 8d 7 4 (1) (3) 2.73% 6x7 1.17%*
WILD RISK 8s x 8S x 6D x 8D 4 3 (2) (1) 2.73% 6x7 2.73%
MAHMOUD 8s x 9s x 8s x 7s x 8d x 8D 6 3 (1) (2) 2.54% 6x7 2.64%*
PHAROS 8S x 9S x 7S x 9S x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D 8 3 (3) (0) 2.54% 6x7 3.08%*
MALVA 9S x 7D x 8D x 9D x 8D x 8D 6 2 (2) (0) 2.34% 6x7 0.39%*
COURT MARTIAL 9S x 6d x 8d 3 3 (1) (2) 2.15% 7x7 2.23%*
SWYNFORD 9s x 9s x 8D x 9D x 9D x 8d x 9D x 9D 8 4 (1) (3) 1.95% 7x7 0.68%*
RIBOT 6S x 8S 2 2 (2) (0) 1.95% 7x7 2.31%
TWO LEA 7S x 7D 2 2 (2) (0) 1.56% 7x7 1.76%
PHALARIS 9S x 8S x 9D x 8D x 9D x 9D 6 4 (4) (0) 1.56% 7x7 0.59%*
BULL DOG 9s x 8S x 9S x 9S x 9D x 9d x 9D 7 2 (1) (1) 1.56% 7x7 0.59%*
TEDDY 9S x 9S x 8S x 9D x 9D x 8d 6 6 (5) (1) 1.56% 7x7 1.12%*
NASRULLAH 8S x 9S x 9S x 7S 4 4 (4) (0) 1.56% 7x7 3.92%*
TOM FOOL 7S x 7D 2 2 (2) (0) 1.56% 7x7 1.76%
FAIR TRIAL 8S x 7D x 9D

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Postby Shammy Davis » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:29 am


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Postby Shammy Davis » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:34 am


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Postby Crystal » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:08 am

good bloodhorse blog about it.

The theory is that turf bloodlines will add stamina and soundess to a competition horse. Thoroughbreds from certain lines have larger frames and thicker bone. A larger frame will support larger lung capacity and thick bone will support the muscle size and contribute to the durability and length of their competition career.

With that said, there has to be a balance of speed as well. A steeplechasing sire is ideal because they seem to have a balance of both as well as a degree of talent for jumping :)

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Postby Elles » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:49 am

Thank you for the responses.
The horse I am talking about in particular and whose linebreeding I gave is by Thousand Words out of a Mtoto daughter. The Mtoto daughter's dam is by Bluebird, so again Storm Bird.
I do know that Mtoto is the sire of Presenting, an incredible National Hunt sire who is the sire of this year's Grand National winner.

And how about this one for sport?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/triple+blade

I just read this: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/s ... 178&page=2, should this make me turn away from the Northern Dancer/Mr Prospector influence?

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Postby vineyridge » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:47 am

Elles, it all depends on what sport you are aiming for. Eventing has more TBs than any of the other disciplines, so it's relatively easy to research.

Danzig is the grandsire of more than a few 4* and WEG event horses who have done really well internationally. He's in the pedigrees of Neville Bardos, Amisted, and several others. Best Northern Dancer sireline for sport at the moment.

Mtoto is Crepello/Busted line, so that leads to a huge number of top level event and sport horses.

Storm Bird has also got some eventing descendants, but not many. Storm Cat is almost a complete FEI level sport horse bust, but the stallion Wuzo xx got sent to The Netherlands, I think; and he's got two jumper grandget through daughters. One is a Swedish Warmblood named Cool On, and the other is a KWPN named Unico.

I would shy away from the Mr. P/No. D cross unless it was at least 4 x 2 or 4 x 3. The farther back the better. Also you need a very strong mare line with the Mr. P son--you want stamina to come in with the mare; and only some of the ND sons work for sport. Lyphard is one of the best to find in the mares. Nijinsky is good; Green Dancer is good; Nureyev is good; Sadler's Wells is coming on strong. You definitely want turfy types.

I'd personally be a bit frightened of Triple Blade as a sport horse stallion. I really like Coup de Folie for sport, but the dreaded cross is too close for comfort.

The Stowaway Filly pedigree shows almost all sport successful sire lines. It's a most impressive page from top to bottom.

I've come to the conclusion that for sport you want as much Blandford as you can get; you want Mieuxce, Aureole, Wild Risk, Court Martial, Hurry On, Ticino, Neckar, and Tudor Minstrel for movement and jump.
Last edited by vineyridge on Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby vineyridge » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:54 am

Add Nearco and his son Nimbus to the list. And you almost can't have a good sport horse without the Dollar line--doesn't matter whether it comes in through daughters or sons, but Tourbillon is the most prevalent. Ahonoora hasn't produced yet in sport, though.

Sir Gaylord is a staple; and so is The Axe (Al Hattab).

Shirley Heights is the damsire of Ghareeb, who is Dancing Brave/Lyphard on top, and Ghareeb is being used in Ireland as an eventing sire on ISH mares who has had some success. He was sold to Ireland by Louella Stud quite a few years ago.
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Postby Shammy Davis » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:49 pm


Elles
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Postby Elles » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:11 pm

It's with regard to show jumping and dressage and that makes it harder to find information.
What is the difference between a good eventer and a show jumper because they both have to be good at jumping?
I mean what is it that makes Darco so special? http://www.darco-stallion.com/Engels/Home.htm
I know that Darco needs mares with a lot of blood because otherwise his offspring tend to get too heavy.
What kind of blooded horse works the best?
This is a picture of Parco, a son of Darco:
http://www.paardentips.com/images/website/parco.jpg
It is hard to have this kind of conformation in a horse that has loads of TB blood isn't it? Because normally the neck gets more horizontally placed. Parco only has about 31% of TB blood. So do sporthorses even need to have TB introduced again every now and than?
A lot of warmblood breeders seem to shy away from TB blood. They would rather see others using it and taking the risk. Because normally it takes one or more generations to get the positives out of it.

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Postby Elles » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:57 pm

This horse http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=ocean+of ... birthland= is by Mr Prospector out of Coup de Folie.
And this one is also family: http://www.le-cheval-bleu.com/eng/wayoflight.htm
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=el+m ... birthland= (very short back it seems).

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Postby vineyridge » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:30 am

One difference beside the high set neck is that show jumpers want a somewhat long back. If you look at Darco, he's always reminded me of a basset hound. :) There are some other differences; for dressage you want one kind of shoulder and for showjumping just the opposite. Also the angles from hip to croup to stifle have different ideals. I can't remember the details, but go to http://www.jwequine.com/ and read Judy Wardrope. She's a Canadian who has a business evaluating pedigrees and conformation of sport horses and also runs clinics and publishes on conformation. She's an excellent resource.

For show jumping, there are two factors: power and scope; and adjustability.

For movement, take a look at the pedigrees of Lauries Crusador and the Arak by Rocket. Arak was in the World Cup dressage final one year and may be the last pure TB to have made it. I'm convinced that Tudor Minstrel is golden for movement--as is Mieuxce, who comes in mostly through daughters. He is the damsire of Crepello. The horse Winston, who was out of the Irish TB mare Daffy-Toban, was the sire of Ann-Kathrin Linsenhoff's Unicef Renoir who was at the Sydney Olympics. Belfalas was a TB sire used by the KWPN who produced in dressage for them through his daughters. Not a movement killer by any means. Dr. Greve's Watermill Swatch is in Ireland now and is being pushed for dressage breeding.

Bolero was 3/4 TB, so he is a good pedigree to use for reference.
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Elles
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Postby Elles » Mon May 02, 2011 1:21 am


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Postby madelyn » Mon May 02, 2011 4:41 am

The biggest difference, in my opinion, between eventers and jumpers is actually dressage ability. A jumper's way of going and style are not nearly so important as scope and handiness. But an eventer needs that, plus stamina, plus style for the dressage phase.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....