I figure this would be best continued in it's own thread. We started quite a bit of it in the Anti-Phalaris thread but I think a continuing discussion of this new finding warrants discussion from people who want to add more info and insight on the subject.
Carry on folks.
The Official "Speed Gene" thread.
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy
Re: The Official "Speed Gene" thread.
diomed wrote:I figure this would be best continued in it's own thread. We started quite a bit of it in the Anti-Phalaris thread but I think a continuing discussion of this new finding warrants discussion from people who want to add more info and insight on the subject.
Carry on folks.
Regarding Somethingroyal...how does one explain The Bride?
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Bast
Aside from the fact that even full siblings can be as different as night and day, both Secretariat and Syrian Sea were foaled and raised at the Meadow and The Bride was foaled and raised at Claiborne and a difference in training methods might have something to do with it, but I think she just did not get enough of the good chromosomes and genes, it happens all the time. Her record as a broodmare is not that bad.
DDT
Aside from the fact that even full siblings can be as different as night and day, both Secretariat and Syrian Sea were foaled and raised at the Meadow and The Bride was foaled and raised at Claiborne and a difference in training methods might have something to do with it, but I think she just did not get enough of the good chromosomes and genes, it happens all the time. Her record as a broodmare is not that bad.
DDT
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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As I recall SYRIAN SEA looked like Somethingroyal. Her most productive foal was Alada by RIVA RIDGE.
Somethingroyal was productive when mated to FIRST LANDING. It's hard to think "productive" when looking at horses bred during the 70's because the winnings look so "slim" compared to the produce of quality mares today.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/somethingroyal
I remember little about The Bride and I think this is because the Phipps probably didn't think much of her as a racehorse. I don't recall any following of her by the press at the time. As DDT said, she was not that bad a mare. Nothing great, but average. SYRIAN SEA produced only one above average foal.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 0882&h=THE BRIDE&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=&pedloggedin=0
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 2&h=SYRIAN SEA&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=&pedloggedin=0
Family 2-s is a productive family, even if you don't think that considering family is important. The strength of production by MALIBU MOON alone is enough to encourage that breeders take notice. MALIBU MOON appears to be blacktype productive when bred back to Family 2.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 2&h=MALIBU MOON&filter=Blacktype+Only&cf=&sort=Earnings&pedloggedin=0
SECRETARIAT had something special. Whether anyone will ever characterize what enhanced his athletic ability is yet to be determined. I personally think it was his psychic. SHAM, a totally different conformation, was beaten by more than just superior athleticism because he was a superior athlete himself.
You may also recall another top producer from that 1970 foal crop. STOP THE MUSIC by HAIL TO REASON gave us CURE THE BLUES from the 2-s family.
While MALIBU MOON succeeded when bred back to Family 2, STOP THE MUSIC excited no one when bred back to Family 11. He was in fact blacktype successful when bred to Family 2 a few times.
Wonder what Bill from WA would be saying about this right now?
Remember that before modern genetic research there was only heredity.
Somethingroyal was productive when mated to FIRST LANDING. It's hard to think "productive" when looking at horses bred during the 70's because the winnings look so "slim" compared to the produce of quality mares today.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/somethingroyal
I remember little about The Bride and I think this is because the Phipps probably didn't think much of her as a racehorse. I don't recall any following of her by the press at the time. As DDT said, she was not that bad a mare. Nothing great, but average. SYRIAN SEA produced only one above average foal.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 0882&h=THE BRIDE&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=&pedloggedin=0
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 2&h=SYRIAN SEA&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=&pedloggedin=0
Family 2-s is a productive family, even if you don't think that considering family is important. The strength of production by MALIBU MOON alone is enough to encourage that breeders take notice. MALIBU MOON appears to be blacktype productive when bred back to Family 2.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... 2&h=MALIBU MOON&filter=Blacktype+Only&cf=&sort=Earnings&pedloggedin=0
SECRETARIAT had something special. Whether anyone will ever characterize what enhanced his athletic ability is yet to be determined. I personally think it was his psychic. SHAM, a totally different conformation, was beaten by more than just superior athleticism because he was a superior athlete himself.
You may also recall another top producer from that 1970 foal crop. STOP THE MUSIC by HAIL TO REASON gave us CURE THE BLUES from the 2-s family.
While MALIBU MOON succeeded when bred back to Family 2, STOP THE MUSIC excited no one when bred back to Family 11. He was in fact blacktype successful when bred to Family 2 a few times.
Wonder what Bill from WA would be saying about this right now?
Remember that before modern genetic research there was only heredity.
Not to start another topic but alot of the horses they mention that they feel have this "speed gene" just happen to be horses that have KNOWN large hearts, not the GENE but the large heart itself.
Just my opinion....you have some researchers that are tying to debunk the large heart theory, even though they don't say they are, and the FACT is, the ones that get in the right hands are fast horses and carry this so called speed gene....but they are also horses known to have the large heart, coincidence, I think not.
They have alot of speed because they have a heart that pumps more blood, more blood makes more oxygen and more oxygen makes you run faster and longer while others are getting tired.
The link to that documentary of the inside of the horse, if that did not convince people that did not understand how the heart works to pump blood to the system I don't know what will.
Sorry I do not buy this "speed gene", too coincidental that the horses they are "tracing back" and digging up, most have already been known to have the large heart and of course if in the right hands will have speed.
How lomg did it take Seabiscuit to win? He was a speed horse in this list BUT he also had the large heart. So was it speed gene or large heart....or is this speed gene the large heart gene and they just want a new name for it?
The mare I feel they are talking about would be a mare coming from the Pocahontas line. If they found a gene it is a gene associated with the large heart. They are just making a new fancy new word for it. It has already been discovered why some horses are faster then others.
Here is another link ust worded different in some areas.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml
Just my opinion....you have some researchers that are tying to debunk the large heart theory, even though they don't say they are, and the FACT is, the ones that get in the right hands are fast horses and carry this so called speed gene....but they are also horses known to have the large heart, coincidence, I think not.
They have alot of speed because they have a heart that pumps more blood, more blood makes more oxygen and more oxygen makes you run faster and longer while others are getting tired.
The link to that documentary of the inside of the horse, if that did not convince people that did not understand how the heart works to pump blood to the system I don't know what will.
Sorry I do not buy this "speed gene", too coincidental that the horses they are "tracing back" and digging up, most have already been known to have the large heart and of course if in the right hands will have speed.
How lomg did it take Seabiscuit to win? He was a speed horse in this list BUT he also had the large heart. So was it speed gene or large heart....or is this speed gene the large heart gene and they just want a new name for it?
The mare I feel they are talking about would be a mare coming from the Pocahontas line. If they found a gene it is a gene associated with the large heart. They are just making a new fancy new word for it. It has already been discovered why some horses are faster then others.
Here is another link ust worded different in some areas.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml
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vineyridge
- Grade III Winner
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Been thinking about the old wisdom that milers can throw both short and long distance horses. If the "speed gene" is THAT influential, it would certainly explain why. That would mean that the milers who can do that are most probably C/Ts and what the mare brings would determine if the foals are C/C, C/T, or T/T. One would suspect that Sadler's Wells, for instance, would be a C/T. Does the article have him as one of the the stallions that were tested--and the results?
What I personally would hate to see is the loss of the T variant in the breed, and one would suspect that might be one of the long term effects of breeding for the C variant--short speed, precocity, and possible fragility.
What I personally would hate to see is the loss of the T variant in the breed, and one would suspect that might be one of the long term effects of breeding for the C variant--short speed, precocity, and possible fragility.
Thread Killer Extraordinaire
See, I don't like labeling this new gene as the "speed" gene. I think of it as a "distance" gene. The horse's genetic dosage. Anyways, just because a horse is a T/T does not mean it's slow just that they would prefer to go longer. Some horses are so talented they are successful despite what they are genetically supposed to do. Northern Dancer, I assume was a C/C but he won at 10f despite it. His talent carried him through. Same with Secretariat, who I suspect is a T/T. He won at a mile despite his genetic dosage of wanting to go farther. Yet, at stud when mated to plodding mares(which is what he got a lot of)he didn't get the runners people expected. When mated to sprinters, he got champions. That is how I am reading all of this. Genetic Dosage.
This will put Roman out of business if I am right.
This will put Roman out of business if I am right.
Last edited by diomed on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
diomed
I agree with you that it should not be labeled as the "speed gene" it is misleading to say the least. If Secretariat was T/T that means he contributed a T to all of his offspring. The dams of A.P. Indy, Chiefs Crown, Gone West and Storm Cat had at least one T to pass on. I wonder if any of those stallions were T/T.
DDT
I agree with you that it should not be labeled as the "speed gene" it is misleading to say the least. If Secretariat was T/T that means he contributed a T to all of his offspring. The dams of A.P. Indy, Chiefs Crown, Gone West and Storm Cat had at least one T to pass on. I wonder if any of those stallions were T/T.
DDT
I suspect that AP Indy might be because of the already known stamina he passes on to his get. With all the speed orientated breeding now, it's no wonder he has done so well at stud with offspring that run beyond a mile.DDT wrote:diomed
I agree with you that it should not be labeled as the "speed gene" it is misleading to say the least. If Secretariat was T/T that means he contributed a T to all of his offspring. The dams of A.P. Indy, Chiefs Crown, Gone West and Storm Cat had at least one T to pass on. I wonder if any of those stallions were T/T.
DDT
diomed
It also could be why he did so well with daughters of Mr. Prospector. He sired a few nice runners from the Raise a Native sire line but what he accomplished with the Mr. P line mares was way above average. I always thought that the primary reason for this success was because Seattle Slew and Mr. P. descend from the same female family, and the matings were bringing in a return to the female line, however, it certainly could be influenced by the C/T combination.
DDT
It also could be why he did so well with daughters of Mr. Prospector. He sired a few nice runners from the Raise a Native sire line but what he accomplished with the Mr. P line mares was way above average. I always thought that the primary reason for this success was because Seattle Slew and Mr. P. descend from the same female family, and the matings were bringing in a return to the female line, however, it certainly could be influenced by the C/T combination.
DDT
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Pan Zareta
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vineyridge wrote:What I personally would hate to see is the loss of the T variant in the breed, and one would suspect that might be one of the long term effects of breeding for the C variant--short speed, precocity, and possible fragility.
Overall, at least half of the TB population is C/T, ~20% T/T. I don't think there's any imminent danger of the T allele disappearing from the breed, especially given the fact that it apparently persists at low level in the QH.
Again, this allele is just an indicator of how quickly in terms of muscle growth an individual may respond to training and exercise. C/C's potentially mature faster and might look like 'the next best thing' at two but may not appear quite as outstanding when the T/C's began to catch up with them in muscle growth, and many C/Cs may have retired by the time a T/T foaled the same year makes its first start.
Anyone familiar with Bold Ruler's record on the track and in the stud might be able to draw some inferences from this. At one point - before he'd gotten a Triple Crown winner and a colt that ran 2d in the JC Gold Cup back when it was still a 2 mi. race - Bold Ruler was somewhat stereotyped as a sire that could get precociously brilliant 2yos apt to become mediocre 3yos that couldn't get classic distance.
Bingo! Great minds think alike.DDT wrote:diomed
It also could be why he did so well with daughters of Mr. Prospector. He sired a few nice runners from the Raise a Native sire line but what he accomplished with the Mr. P line mares was way above average. I always thought that the primary reason for this success was because Seattle Slew and Mr. P. descend from the same female family, and the matings were bringing in a return to the female line, however, it certainly could be influenced by the C/T combination.
DDT
Considering great nicks and the type of racing in the day, etc...I am thinking that Domino could have been a C/C and that great short racing influence could be the number one reason his male line survived to this day. Everyone who has read about Domino knows he basically could not race beyond a mile but his offspring sure could, which kept him in fashion. I wish there was some way to find out his numbers for 2yo production too since it was becoming very fashionable to have top 2yo's racing after he went to stud.
Oh, BTW, I am having great fun today looking up TB's that were great QH sire's. Also, along the way, I am trying to think of great sprinters in general and seeing if there is a common line(male or female)associated with them. Even if I have to go way back in the pedigree, etc.
There are some female lines that have done very well with the QH breed but also the TB, so I am looking at those in depth too. I will be busy today.
There are some female lines that have done very well with the QH breed but also the TB, so I am looking at those in depth too. I will be busy today.
Pan Zareta
Could we then assume, and we know about assuming and where that gets us, but anyway, can I assume from this that a horse that becomes a 2 year old champion and repeats as 3 year old champion, or older champion, has overcome the genetic predisposition of T/T, and therefore has the good stuff in addition to T/T?
DDT
Could we then assume, and we know about assuming and where that gets us, but anyway, can I assume from this that a horse that becomes a 2 year old champion and repeats as 3 year old champion, or older champion, has overcome the genetic predisposition of T/T, and therefore has the good stuff in addition to T/T?
DDT