Bend Or was Tadcaster?

[Pan Zareta]

Indeed a very interesting thread - but now I am confused about what to do with my own private database? I really want things to be correct, not sure what to do with the progeny of Bend Or in my database? Should I "correct" the pedigree of Bend Or? Or change his progeny to be sired by Tadcaster?

Surely it is interesting to know who won the Epsom Derby, but for me it's more important that the pedigrees I have in my database is correct? I have read this thread but not checked all the links, is it possible that Tadcaster (in the name of Bend Or so to say) won the Derby but the "real" Bend Or was the one used at stud? Or was the horses still swapped?

Non-recombinant DNA cannot be used to prove maternity or paternity beyond all doubt. The findings of Bower et al. do not definitively prove that Bend Or was actually Tadcaster. That is, however, certainly the simplest explanation, the most plausible scenario, consistent with their findings and the least subjective evidence from the historic record.

As to which was the covering sire on foals attributed to Bend Or, all we can do is speculate. It would be intersting to know if Bower et al. parentage verified the remains of Ormonde to the remains of Bend Or.

The mtDNA sequences for all the historic remains tested are available from GenBank. Imo, the results for Bend Or & Eclipse were less remarkable than Hyperion's sequence. He doesn't match up with either of the two previously published haplotypes for family 6.

[cissiny]

Thanks Pan Zareta

Well, in my own database I went ahead and changed the dam for Bend Or and wrote a long note about the Bend Or/Tadcaster thing. Comparing the photos of Bend Or (looks like stud photo) and Tadcaster's full sister made me think that I am quite sure that it was actually Tadcaster that was the sire of the foals, but I kept the name Bend Or in my database. Just changed the dam.

Hyperion?
I had no idea! Oh my... Hmmm...

I am mostly into "sport horses" (ie. eventers, jumpers, dressage horses) and I do know that there are horses with official and unofficial pedigrees... Mostly the wrong sire... A very well known secret is that of Capitano, sire of the legendary Capitol I. (These are Holsteiners, jumping horses). The "true" pedigree of Capitol I has some very interesting linebreeding... Here's the "official" one: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=544170 and the real (in my opinion) one: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10664004
Of course, the linebreeding to the fantastic mare Vase is very important, but for TB people it might be interesting to look at Ramzes? He was a Shagya by the TB Rittersporn.

Sorry for going from the thread... Hope it was ok?
Best wishes,
Cissi

[Pan Zareta]

Anomalies, as made apparent by mtDNA analysis, in pedigrees as recorded in the various stud books don't necessarily reflect deliberate attempts at deception. There is no published context at present for Hyperion's sequence. Until there is it's worthy of remark but justifies no revision.

My equestrian experiences began in the sport horse world (H/J) too. I'm not familiar with the circumstances of Capitano's breeding but, for what it's worth, I've become skeptical by default in regard to claims of falsified pedigrees. Most such claims that I've researched turned out to be based on next to nothing in the way of credible evidence.

[xfactor fan]

Pan Zareta,

Would you please provide a link to the correct listing of historic TB's?
I tried finding it myself but couldn't figure out where in the database this information is located.

Thanks.

[Pan Zareta]

Pan Zareta,

Would you please provide a link to the correct listing of historic TB's?
I tried finding it myself but couldn't figure out where in the database this information is located.

Thanks.

I'm uncertain what you mean by a "link to the correct listing.." - here are the names of the 12 horses and one mare whose remains have been tested and, to some extent, reported upon by Bower et al.-

Bend Or
Corrie Roy
Donovan
Eclipse
Hermit
Hyperion
Persimmon
Polymelus
Ormonde
St Frusquin
St. Simon
Stockwell
William the Third

[cissiny]

Thanks again Pan Zareta

Anomalies, as made apparent by mtDNA analysis, in pedigrees as recorded in the various stud books don't necessarily reflect deliberate attempts at deception. There is no published context at present for Hyperion's sequence. Until there is it's worthy of remark but justifies no revision.

I am sure that there are no deceptions here, just that old records can be wrong and in the case of Hyperion (which I have not read about) it might be that his pedigree (the first generations at least) is correct but somewhere some mares got mixed up?

My equestrian experiences began in the sport horse world (H/J) too. I'm not familiar with the circumstances of Capitano's breeding but, for what it's worth, I've become skeptical by default in regard to claims of falsified pedigrees. Most such claims that I've researched turned out to be based on next to nothing in the way of credible evidence.

There are of course many rumours, especially when it comes to who the "real" sire of a horse is. Most are just rumours I think. In this specific case I am 99,9 % sure that the "unofficial" pedigree of Capitano is the correct one, I have lots of evidence for it (some very obvious and easy to discuss publicly and some that I would not take publicly). I do share your skepticism when it comes to other rumours though!

Best wishes,
Cissi

[xfactor fan]

But how do you get to the data on these horses?

I went to GenBank.com and it is huge, and organized with a search feature, but I suspect you have to be in the correct part of the data base, before typing in Hyperion will work.

Thank

[Pan Zareta]

The mtDNA nucleotide sequences from the historic horses & mare sampled are GB accession #s HM581890-HM581905. There are 16 v. 13 because 4 are from Eclipse (humerus, tibia, metacarpus, tooth). Single samples from the rest. Hyperion's sequence is HM581898. This is the raw data. To make sense it has to be aligned and compared with either the E. caballus Cambridge reference sequence (CRS), X79547, or with Achilli's proposed new horse reference sequence (HRS) JN398377. Various alignment programs that will do this are available at no charge, Clustal W, Geneious, to name a couple.

[xfactor fan]

Thanks,

What's your guess about Hyperion? Was he a changeling, or something up the family tree?

[vineyridge]

My bet on Hyperion is somewhere many generations back in the dam line. Selene was a supermare who produced super sires. Her dam line family was supposed to have not been so great on the track until Constance appears, or so I've read.

[vineyridge]

FWIW, Frankel is tail female to Rouge Rose.

[xfactor fan]

Given how important Selene is/was I figured that she would have been included in the testing for family 6. However given the findings on Hyperion, I'd guess that someone right now is tracking down a tail female modern horse to run some tests.

[brogers]

FWIW, Frankel is tail female to Rouge Rose.

Viney,

There are 80 starters on the Galileo/Danehill cross but if you also take a look at all the SW that are by Galileo out of a Danehill mare and then look at their mtDNA family it is pretty interesting....

Frankel (1-k)
Golden Lilac (1-e)
Teofilo (1-n)
Maybe (1-t)
Cima de Triomphe (9-c...which is not the #9 family)
Roderic O'Connor (16-c)
Cuis Ghaire (14-c)
Sidera (6-d)
Reem (20-a)
Banc de Fortune (19)
Lagalp (9-e)
Miss Galilei (9-h)

Basically his top 4 horses bred on the nick are actually all from the one mtDNA family. If the concept of mitochondrial biogenesis can be proven in athletic performance in horses this may mean something.

[brogers]

It would be intersting to know if Bower et al. parentage verified the remains of Ormonde to the remains of Bend Or.

You will probably want to read this

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

[Pan Zareta]

It would be intersting to know if Bower et al. parentage verified the remains of Ormonde to the remains of Bend Or.

You will probably want to read this

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

I did. Had forgotten about it. Wouldn't say it completely r/o's the possibility of comparing Ormonde & Bend Or at a nuDNA marker or two, but the possibility of determining parentage with any reasonable degree of confidence seems unlikely. Probably not a great idea to waste time & $$ there.