Outcross, Hybrid Vigor and the Derby: A question for Louis

[Whirlaway]

Hi Louis, hope you are well.

I didn't want this topic to be buried and lost in the Inbreeding and Breakdown thread where it is originally posted, so I created a new thread.

~

I was reading a post by a gentleman who was a pigeon fancier for over fifty years and I recalled you are also a pigeon fancier so I thought to ask your opinion about what that gentleman wrote about outcrossing and hybrid vigor.

He wrote that inbreeding and line breeding for long periods of time caused that strain to become weaker, what he called "inbreeding depression." He wrote that to prevent this depression, new blood must be introduced into the original strain and this new blood produced an outcross. It was his experience that when a proper outcross is produced, it was more robust and more vigorous when compared to the original strain - the outcross possessed "hybrid vigor." He wrote that it was his experience that when an outcross is bred back into the original strain, that mating produced an offspring that was as good as or greater than the outcross. He called this mating an F1 outcross.

What are your thoughts about what this fancier wrote about outcrossing, hybrid vigor and the F1 outcross?

~

Here is the rest of the story and how it relates to the Kentucky Derby. This fancier wrote that at the beginning of this year he was looking at the list of Kentucky Derby nominees and saw Gemologist. He took a look at his breeding and saw he was an F1 outcross, saw the horse won its first few races and from his pigeon breeding experience, believed Gemologist was “as good as or greater than the outcross.” That outcross is Tiznow. Mr. Fancier made a few bets on Gemologist in the first Derby futures simply based on his breeding and is now holding onto some pretty live tickets! What makes the story so believable is he posted Gemologist as his pick back in the first week of January. As a fancier, I am interested in your thoughts here Louis and thanks.

[Bast]

Hi Louis, hope you are well.

I didn't want this topic to be buried and lost in the Inbreeding and Breakdown thread where it is originally posted, so I created a new thread.

~

I was reading a post by a gentleman who was a pigeon fancier for over fifty years and I recalled you are also a pigeon fancier so I thought to ask your opinion about what that gentleman wrote about outcrossing and hybrid vigor.

He wrote that inbreeding and line breeding for long periods of time caused that strain to become weaker, what he called "inbreeding depression." He wrote that to prevent this depression, new blood must be introduced into the original strain and this new blood produced an outcross. It was his experience that when a proper outcross is produced, it was more robust and more vigorous when compared to the original strain - the outcross possessed "hybrid vigor." He wrote that it was his experience that when an outcross is bred back into the original strain, that mating produced an offspring that was as good as or greater than the outcross. He called this mating an F1 outcross.

What are your thoughts about what this fancier wrote about outcrossing, hybrid vigor and the F1 outcross?

~

Here is the rest of the story and how it relates to the Kentucky Derby. This fancier wrote that at the beginning of this year he was looking at the list of Kentucky Derby nominees and saw Gemologist. He took a look at his breeding and saw he was an F1 outcross, saw the horse won its first few races and from his pigeon breeding experience, believed Gemologist was “as good as or greater than the outcross.” That outcross is Tiznow. Mr. Fancier made a few bets on Gemologist in the first Derby futures simply based on his breeding and is now holding onto some pretty live tickets! What makes the story so believable is he posted Gemologist as his pick back in the first week of January. As a fancier, I am interested in your thoughts here Louis and thanks.

Stop, stare, and wonder:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gemologist2

[louis finochio]

I totally agree, with the pigeon fancier. When the racing performance starts to regress, the fire has gone out of their eyes, their conformation becomes non-robust, those warning signs tell us it is time to find an outcross.

I always like the outcross, thru the mare or hen, as the successful male line should not be tampered with, when you bring in an unrelated male.
After the 1st cross is made, the offspring of the cross is mated back to the original family. Thats where those superior runners will surface.

Gemologist's outcross Tiznow is thru his sire, which will breed superior runners. Every breeder has his own formula to breed the Big Horse.
_________________
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio

[xfactor fan]

The genetic principal is known as inbreeding depression.

Has been known a very long time. Happens when there are to many of the same individual showing up in the pedigree.

Look at High Time

Highly inbred to Domino. Blindingly fast for 2 furlongs. Seems to have gotten all the "speed genes" and none of the stamina.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/high+time

If High Time was bred to a daughter of Ultimus--that horse would be very inbred, and a perfect candidate for an outcross.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
The Wiki entry on inbreeding depression.

[Barcaldine]

xfactor,

Check out this pedigree of High Time's champion son SARAZEN, who made 52 starts, 27 wins.

Note his dam's inbreeding to ST SIMON and his full sister ANGELICA, as well as to BEND OR. If not for a single strain to HIMYAR, this mating of two highly inbred, but almost unrelated, horses represents an excellent example of hybrid vigor:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sarazen

[louis finochio]

When you plan a mating of a stallion that's highly inbred, to a mare that is highly inbred, that';s not related to one another, their progeny will inherit soundess & hybrid vigor.

I have bred many winners from that type of matings.

[xfactor fan]

Outcross yes, hybrid no.

[Barcaldine]

I agree in principle with Louis

[Shammy Davis]

Barcaldine wrote:

I agree in principle with Louis

I'd be interested in what you mean by "in principal."

[Barcaldine]

I agree with Louis' endorsement of this breeding theory, but don't necessarily agree that it will produce soundness. Like with all matings the outcomes depend on the individuals used. I dont think unsound or crooked horses, irrespective of their bloodlines, generally reproduce soundness. Certainly there are exceptions but odds are against it.

This forum could be elevated to a higher level if the childish and sometimes mean-spirited sniping (especially against Louis) is stopped. I dont think anyone here has cornered the market on insights.

[Barcaldine]

I agree with Louis' endorsement of this breeding theory, but don't necessarily agree that it will produce soundness. Like with all matings the outcomes depend on the individuals used. I dont think unsound or crooked horses, irrespective of their bloodlines, generally reproduce soundness. Certainly there are exceptions but odds are against it.

This forum could be elevated to a higher level if the childish and sometimes mean-spirited sniping (especially against Louis) is stopped. I dont think anyone here has cornered the market on insights.

[Tappiano]

No breeding "theory" can produce soundness based on names in pedigrees. A breeding philosophy based on the physical characteristics will be far more likely to succeed simply because what you see "Should" be what you get ID you are breeding similar horses.

Tesio had a lot to say about this in his book. He went to great lengths to study the Epsom Derby and the Epsom Oaks and noticed that while there might have been a father/son/grandson or mother/daughter winner, he wondered why it was that it did not continue past that. He did not discuss the physical traits of the horses themselves, but perhaps that was one of the "secrets" he chose to keep to himself.

[louis finochio]

If Tesio was alive today, he would not have become a Fashion Breeder. In Tesio's time, those NP sire lines were alive & well. He used those NP lines in his matings to breed his superior runners.

Tesio was a master breeder because he had the superior bloodstock. If he had medicore stock, he would not have bred those quality tbs. You can only get out of a tb thats bred into it, & no more.

Tesio would not have believed, that our breed is now 95% from one sire line. Unsoundness is a product of Inbreeding to the max, from the same sire line. Tesio would take a different view of our Inbreedings in the present.

Great breeders become great breeders, when they are ahead of the Fashion crowd. They will see what is happening to our breed, & will seek those NP outcross sire lines, to breed those sound tbs that have an iron constution.

[Bast]

If Tesio was alive today, he would not have become a Fashion Breeder. In Tesio's time, those NP sire lines were alive & well. He used those NP lines in his matings to breed his superior runners.

Tesio was a master breeder because he had the superior bloodstock. If he had medicore stock, he would not have bred those quality tbs. You can only get out of a tb thats bred into it, & no more.

Tesio would not have believed, that our breed is now 95% from one sire line. Unsoundness is a product of Inbreeding to the max, from the same sire line. Tesio would take a different view of our Inbreedings in the present.

Great breeders become great breeders, when they are ahead of the Fashion crowd. They will see what is happening to our breed, & will seek those NP outcross sire lines, to breed those sound tbs that have an iron constution.

Tesio bred Nearco. No Nearco, no Nasrullah, no Royal Charger, no Bold Ruler, no Turn-to, no Seattle Slew, no Northern Dancer. What were you saying about Tesio, Louis???

Some of Tesio's broodmare acquisitions puzzled people because they didn't look like such wonderful choices. Time to do more homework, Louis.

Louis, take two poorly made horses, breed them, and the chances are you will get another poorly made horse prone to breaking down. It doesn't matter if they are inbred or not. It isn't the INBREEDING that leads to quality problems, it's the GENES.

[Tappiano]

My memory is not crystal clear on SOME of those choices he made BUT I do believe he sought them because they were durable. They may not have been stakes winners as their siblings or dams were, but they had most likely run often and run sound over a long period of time. He was willing to forgive the lack of ability, perhaps because they lost that "vigor" he kept talking about, or because they were physically better matches for the stallion/dam he had in mind for the cross than one of the more successful (on the track) relatives.