Pedigree of today's Hambletonian winner

[Barcaldine]

Market Share took the biggest harness race today.

I enjoy studying the pedigree patterns of top runners of all breeds. I find that trotters and quarter horses generally have more inbreeding, especially through the use of a modified hybrid model.


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/market+share3

In this case the dam is intensely inbred, but was bred to an almost complete outcross to produce Market Share. His sire was produced by another highly inbred mare, but the top line is a complete outcross as it was imported.

Those people who claim that inbreeding weakens the breed should study pedigrees other than TB. IMO intelligent inbreeding creates the opposite effefct--it strengthens the individual.

[Tappiano]

That's not "careful" that is the result of AI and very little in the way of availability of outcrosses. The breed thrives because they are allowed to do what they were bred to do, race. they are all largely dealing with the same genes. If they are not raced as frequently as they are, it does not work.

Thoroughbreds are treated like fine china, wrapped up, kept under lock and key and run very infrequently. The TB might get a half mile or five eighths workout a week but the standie will race a mile once a week and trains the rest of the time.

Imagine if there were tb's with all this inbreeding....
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/muscles+yankee

[Barcaldine]

By 'careful' I meant 'thoughtful,' e.g. not inbreeding to poor stock.

One of the great breeders of yesteryear, Robert Kleberg of King Ranch, created a new breed of cattle, Santa Gertrudes, by the use of hybrids. He also used this technique in his TB matings. Among the best horses he bred on this modified pattern (but lost early to a claim) was the great STYMIE:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/stymie

Note that his sire made only eight starts, winning two; his dam was unplaced in four starts. STYMIE made 131 starts, running to age nine.

[Tappiano]

Well, given that Colin sired so few foals and was so successful with those, I'd bet that all the breeders were eager at that time to incorporate those bloodlines. It's a shame that Include is at the end of that line, but if you look at it, you'll see how hard knocking and sound those runners were for the most part.

Accidents and bad steps are always going to happen no matter how a horse is bred and one generation with few or no starts is not an indication of the line itself. Three generations of it, I'd say is a better indicator. Won't it be interesting to see how some of THESE yearlings sell next month at Keeneland.

[vineyridge]

When Kleberg was creating the King Ranch version of the TB laiden QH back in the 1930s or thereabouts, the amount of inbreeding to his foundation stallion was intense. He bred him to his daughters and granddaughters and his sons to their nieces, etc.

I currently cannot remember the name of the horse, though. PZ will have it on the tip of her fingers.

[ElPrado]

Old Sorrel?

[xfactor fan]

Old Sorrel.

The crosses of sire to daughter didn't work in this case. There was huge selection ;ressure on the colts left entire. Colts were used working cattle, under typical ranch conditions, and had to be very good to be included in the breeding program.

The first generation was mostly 1/2 sibling crosses. The best sons to the best daughters, then one generation down daughters of one son to daughters of another son.

Brilliant work, made possible by having large numbers of horses to work with, and a goal in mind for the end product.

[Barcaldine]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/old+sorrel

Interesting that Kleberg would use this half-breed as a cornerstone stallion. Then again, I guess good cutting horses dont need many pedigree merits.

[Barcaldine]

EQUESTRIAN. In addition to siring the stamina-laden STYMIE, he also sired another TB which became one of the greatest Quarter Horse sires of all time: TOP DECK

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/top+deck

It's no coincidence that both STYMIE and TOP DECK are intensely inbred horses, and in fact they are basically inbred to the same horses. Yet, as racehorses and sires, they were diametrically opposite. STYMIE couldn't run a quarter mile in :23 to save his life, and his foals followed in his footsteps. Yet TOP DECK and his brood have set numerous time records for distances no longer than a quarter mile.

Go figure.

[Pan Zareta]

Interesting that Kleberg would use this half-breed as a cornerstone stallion.

Old Sorrel was probably 15/16 TB. The Dr. Rose mares (one of which was his dam) were TBs bought as a group around the time of the racing blackouts, when even well-bred TBs were being sold out of KY, dirt cheap, by the freight car load. The pedigree of his sire, Hickory Bill, as given in the db here is the same as on the foal reg. ctf. for Hickory Bill on file at the KR, and more likely correct than the pedigree as given in the ABDB. HB was an 'appendix TB', reg. for racing purposes only, b/c his 2d damsire was the unregistered Jack Traveler. JT's pedigree is usually given as x Steeldust - Queen x Pilgrim TB x Lexington. That's impossible by date. JT is known from racing rcds. as the sire of foals as early as 1877. Pilgrim was nowhere near Texas, or at stud anywhere, until the spring of 1872. JT was probably by Pilgrim and out of a mare x Steeldust.

[Sylvie Hebert]

Quote: t's not "careful" that is the result of AI and very little in the way of availability of outcrosses. The breed thrives because they are allowed to do what they were bred to do, race. they are all largely dealing with the same genes. If they are not raced as frequently as they are, it does not work.

Thoroughbreds are treated like fine china, wrapped up, kept under lock and key and run very infrequently. The TB might get a half mile or five eighths workout a week but the standie will race a mile once a week and trains the rest of the time.

I really like that and agree 100% except to say that inbreeding plays no part.It certainly plays a part when done properly and with diligent culling as is done in dogs but the difference is in horses you get one a year and have to wait years before being certain of the result so much more expenses,risks and all...so almost impossible...

[vineyridge]

I know absolutely nothing about standardbred racing.

Do they have the huge emphasis on 2 year old and 3 year old racing? What age do they generally start their horses? Do they have the same emphasis on breeding for the sales and not actually breeding for racing?

How many of today's top TB breeders with the excellent broodmare bands still breed to race?

Breeding for young stock sales transfers the risk of track failure from the breeder to the buyer, doesn't it?

[ElPrado]

Today's TB breeders breed for the sale ring. The race track is an after thought. It's hurry up and get them sold so that they have room for the next crop.

[pfrsue]

Viney, as I recall from my long ago days of working on a Standardbred farm, they're started around the same time as Thoroughbreds, but there are two things that I always thought made a big difference.

Firstly, pulling a training cart or a sulky is much easier on growing bodies than carrying the weight of a rider. On a level surface, the most significant strain is in getting it started. After that, the momentum keeps it going. The weight of the cart/sulky and driver is pretty negligible.

Secondly, trotting and pacing are gaits in which two hooves are hitting the ground simultaneously, giving a much more even distribution of load than the one hoof at a time of a gallop.

Hope that helps answer part of your question.

[vineyridge]

I've been reading the American Racing Manual for 1963--actually reading it--and the changes in everything about TB racing since that time are pretty astounding--and not for the better.

At the end of the 2yo year, there were a few 1 1/16 mile races. Horses ran on both turf and dirt. The Washington International was a BIG turf race and Kelso ran it several times. A tremendous number of the best horses were homebreds of their owners. The Chenery stable was one of the best there was, and Virginia breeders and owners were generally pretty darned good. New York and California had the best racing in the country, with Florida and Illinois competitive. Kentucky was not considered top class where the races were concerned, except for the Derby. Horses, even top class ones, seemed to race every two weeks and often less. There were a lot more races of 1 1/2 miles and over, and races of classic distance were the top of the heap.

Horses were just as fragile then as they are now.

When and why did the structure change so drastically? And what happened to the Washington International and Maryland racing in general.