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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Wow, I'm impressed. Well written well presented information. The charts were a brilliant touch, as they made it very clear that the Hill study had some room to add data.

My other question about the Hill study in general was how much was the decision to just look at part of the DNA due to funding, or lack of technology? As in the technology wasn't there yet.

What did come though was both the fact that more work needs to be done, and your frustration with the current situation of people making leaps that aren't quite supported by the science.

Good science writers are rare, as they have to understand the science and be able to communicate it to folks that aren't quite as technical. Well done.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Thank you for the kind words. The technology to sequence the entire mt genome was there in 2002, but that's a prohibitively expensive undertaking. Hill's study was financed in full by Gainsborough Stud Mgmt. Ltd., albeit probably not with a blank check. Their study was undoubtedly designed to yield results as reliable as the resources would allow. The few equine intra-breed mtDNA studies published prior to Hill's also relied completely upon partial HVS1 sequences for their analyses. As far as I know, Kavar's 2d study of Lipizzans was the first to look outside HVS1 in some but not all of their samples. That study was published a few weeks after Hill's. The fact that equine mtDNA haplotypes cannot in many cases be fully defined from the HVS1 fragment Hill used wasn't glaringly obvious from examination of longer sequences in GenBank until a few years later and wasn't presented in published report until this year. The reports (mtDNA & 'Truth in the bones') of Bower et al. suffer, unfortunately, from the same dependence on HVS1 alone b/c much of the work was completed several years ago.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:29 am 
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Excellent work, PZ. I could ALMOST understand it. I did come away with the feeling that much of the Hill/Bowers work will need to be redone using more of the mtDNA.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Vinyridge,

I'd reccoment Saxons, Vikings, and Celts by Bryan Sykes He's the author that wrote "The Seven Daughters of Eve", Sykes is both a working scientist, a good writer and storyteller.

While this book concentrates on the genetic "fingerprint" of the British Isles. (Humans, not horses) Sykes does a nice job of explaing the underlying science in regular terms. He covers both the mtDNA lines, and Y chromosomes. What is also nice is that he ties the actual science into myth and archology.

It may be possible to tie the human research into the founders of the Thoroughbred. For example one of the "clans" that made their way to the British Isles migrated from Spain. It seems logical that they would bring their horses with them. Which might explain the presence of mtDNA in current TB's and Iberian horse populations. '


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Are Iberian horses the same as Baroque horses? The modern day examples of Spanish and Portuguese breeding (Andalusians, Lusitanos and PREs) are very similar to the Lippizaners; and it wouldn't have been called the Spanish Riding School if there were no connection. I know someone who has described the Baroque/Spanish horses as bred to work off the hock, while the TB and TB influenced WBs work primarily off the shoulder. The Baroque horses can sit and piaffe and passage extravagantly; but they don't extend and collect with the ease of WBs.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:41 pm 
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The Lusitano, Andalusian and Menorquino are the Iberians in the Baroque class. The Lipizzan is considered Baroque as well. According to tradition they were developed from 16th cent. Spanish stock.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:55 am 
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I was asking because there were "Iberian" horses who have mtDNA analysis mentioned in your article. I was wondering precisely what was meant by Iberian horse. I just don't personally know of any other than the Baroque type.

There are some rather interesting scientific papers on muscle fiber types in the Baroque Spanish horses.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:54 pm 
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vineyridge wrote:
I was asking because there were "Iberian" horses who have mtDNA analysis mentioned in your article. I was wondering precisely what was meant by Iberian horse. I just don't personally know of any other than the Baroque type.

There are some rather interesting scientific papers on muscle fiber types in the Baroque Spanish horses.


Iberian horses do include Andalusians (aka Pura Raza Espanola). There are around 18 breeds that are called Iberian horses, per the wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_horse

At the bottom of the Wikipedia article there's a link to an article - The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA - that you might want to read (the full text is available for free).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Probably no other group of breeds/types has been as subject to as much genetic analysis as the Iberians and their derivatives. In addition to 'Origins', see-

Lira J, Linderholm A, Olaria C, Brandström D M. Gilbert M T, Ellegren H, Willerslev E, Lidén K, Arsuaga J L, Götherström A. Ancient DNA reveals traces of Iberian Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages in modern Iberian horses. Mol Ecol. 2010 Jan;19(1):64-78. Epub 2009 Nov 25.

Lopes M S, Mendonça D, Cymbron T, Valera M, da Costa-Ferreira J, Machado A C. The Lusitano horse maternal lineage based on mitochondrial D-loop sequence variation. Anim Genet. 2005 Jun;(36)3:196-202

Luis C, Bastos-Silveira J, Costa-Ferreira J, Cothran E G, Oom M M. A lost Sorraia maternal lineage found in the Lusitano horse breed. J. Anim. Breed. Genet. 123 (2006) 399–402

Luis C, Bastos-Silveira C, Cothran E G, Oom M M. (2002) Variation in the mitochondrial control region sequence between the two maternal lines of the Sorraia horse breed. Genet. Mol. Biol., 25, 309–311.

Mirol P M, Peral Garcia P, Vega-Pla J L, Dulout F N. Phylogenetic relationships of Argentinean Creole horses and other South American and Spanish breeds inferred from mitochondrial DNA sequences. Anim Genet. 2002 Oct;33(5):356-63

And that's just the mitochondrial tip of the iceberg.

Published results of mtDNA haplotyping do not reveal much commonality between the Lipizzan and contemporary or ancient Iberians. That doesn't necessarily contradict the tradition of the Lipizzan's Spanish origin, but it does suggest the Iberian influence may have been mainly through males.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:07 pm 
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How about the Napolitanos? They are an Italian Renaissance Baroque breed, and are very far from what the Romans supposedly used. The Spanish controlled Naples for several centuries and fought all over Italy. It's been suggested that the Italian Baroque horses derive from the Spanish ones.

However there are Renaissance mounted statues from earlier than the late 15th/early 16th centuries that look very baroque to me.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:38 am 
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Pan Zareta wrote:
Bloodlines has some new pages relevant to this subject...


The Bloodlines mtDNA and Pedigree Matters pages have been updated.


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 Post subject: Re: gallopade 1828
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:43 pm 
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stancaris wrote:
X Factor Fan: I looked up the last 5 winners of the Derby that were members of family 23b and found that all five traced in tail female to Gallopade (1928). Is it safe to assume that these 5 Derby winners all have the same mt-DNA that Gallopade carried or could the mistakes have occurred after Gallopade's time?

The Five winners that carried Gallopade and are in family 23b are as follows: I'll Have Another, Mine That Bird, Lil E Tee, Winning Colors and Affirmed.


Am I wrong in thinking that that's a lot of Derby winners for one female family, not #1?

jm

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 Post subject: Re: gallopade 1828
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:18 am 
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Joltman wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that that's a lot of Derby winners for one female family, not #1?

Sort of. :wink:

Family 23 overall has produced 8 KD winners. Very impressive for #23 at first glance but the facts must be taken into account that *Gallopade's branch (23-b) has undergone significant expansion since the Lowe numbers were assigned, and that there's an error somewhere in the record of her descendants. She may be getting credit for one or more winners that don't belong in fam. 23.

Family 4 has actually produced the most KD winners - 17, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Pan Zareta wrote:
Pan Zareta wrote:
Bloodlines has some new pages relevant to this subject...


The Bloodlines mtDNA and Pedigree Matters pages have been updated.


Just dropped by the boards and noticed this - very nicely done.


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 Post subject: Re: gallopade 1828
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:42 pm 
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Pan Zareta wrote:
Family 23 overall has produced 8 KD winners. Very impressive for #23 at first glance but the facts must be taken into account that *Gallopade's branch (23-b) has undergone significant expansion since the Lowe numbers were assigned, and that there's an error somewhere in the record of her descendants. She may be getting credit for one or more winners that don't belong in fam. 23.


We've just finished sequencing the mtDNA on a little over 1500 horses. On 23b branch there are two mtDNA haplotypes from that family so there is an error in pedigree records as per other studies.

One of the samples we had was through a daughter of Tell Seattle, who is a half sister to Affirmed. Another is out of Bronze Charmer. These two samples have the common ancestor of Scarlet Ribbon (1957) and obviously trace through Lizzie G to Gallopade (1828). The haplotype for this Lizzie G branch is different to all the other samples that we have from the 23b family. We have samples that go through Gallopade's daughters Cotillion (then via both Dance and Gallopade Jr) and Reel, so it is reasonable to say that the Lizzie G branch of Gallopade is incorrect and not what Stud Book records indicate. When that occured is hard to know exactly but the dubious records surrounding Lizzie G is probably a starting point. We hope to have something out for breeders to use in the new year.

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