Foundation pedigrees

[3nutmeg]

I'm not sure how to say this,but is there such a thing as foundation Thoroughbred lines? What lines sans MP, ND(Phalaris?), RAN, Unbridled are still viable in US that perform well? There's talk about vanishing blood lines, what blood lines are out there that can be saved?

[xfactor fan]

There's a shift going oin the the TB breeding industry. Tradition, and old notions of blood lines, vs the modern science of genetics.

Sirelines are pretty meaningless, as most of the TB's have the exact same Y chromosome, and the only thing that a male descendant of Eclipse ( which includes most stallions active today) is the Y chromosome.

A good resource is the sporthorse database. One of the features that this site has is a inbreeding calculation. You can look at the percentage of the most common ancestors of any horse in the database. And it is easy to add horses if you want info on a horse not currently included.

[dublino]

There's a shift going oin the the TB breeding industry. Tradition, and old notions of blood lines, vs the modern science of genetics.

Sirelines are pretty meaningless

Do you have "scientific" proof to match up this outlandish statement?

[Linda_d]

There's a shift going oin the the TB breeding industry. Tradition, and old notions of blood lines, vs the modern science of genetics.

Sirelines are pretty meaningless

Do you have "scientific" proof to match up this outlandish statement?

Vineyridge posted the results of a recent genetic study that confirms this just a couple of weeks ago: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33664&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=y+chromosome+sire+lines

There have been others discussed in this forum and possibly in the Color forum as well.

[dublino]

That is the most absurd conclusion to find from that study.

To say sirelines are meaningless is braindead.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here.

That must get a Bwd award for stupidity.

[Pan Zareta]

There's a shift going oin the the TB breeding industry. Tradition, and old notions of blood lines, vs the modern science of genetics.

Sirelines are pretty meaningless

Do you have "scientific" proof to match up this outlandish statement?

To begin with, there are only three extant sire lines in the TB, the Darley via Eclipse, the Godolphin via Matchem, and the Byerley via Herod. The only genetic factor common to all members of a sireline is the non-recombinant, male-specific part of the equine Y chromosome, i.e. MSY, a relatively minuscule stretch of DNA, the sole purpose of which is to turn the embryo, female by default, into a male, and which is expressed only in the testes.

The only variability documented to date in TB MSY is a single base pair deletion common to all sampled descendants of Whalebone 1807. In other words there are only two types of MSY in the TB. Sires are quite important. Sirelines, as XFF said, are pretty meaningless.

[dublino]

Sires are quite important. Sirelines, as XFF said, are pretty meaningless.

????
And what do the quite important sires have?
A Pedigree, a Sireline.

I'd say you are one of these muppets that sit around debating wether if a tree falls and no-one is around does it make a sound?

[Pan Zareta]

I'd say you are one of these muppets that sit around debating wether if a tree falls and no-one is around does it make a sound?

Not really. Sounds almost as tediously boring as sireline mythology. And I was going to ask if your name was Louis.

[dublino]

I'd say you are one of these muppets that sit around debating wether if a tree falls and no-one is around does it make a sound?

Not really. Sounds almost as tediously boring as sireline mythology. And I was going to ask if your name was Louis.

So sireline holds no value, next female family holds no value....

What else is left for "science" then......

[Pan Zareta]

So sireline holds no value, next female family holds no value....

Wrong again. The female analogue of MSY is non-recombinant, maternally inherited mitchondrial DNA. There is considerable diversity in the TB mitochondrial genome and little or none in MSY. If you know what the mitochondria are and do then you'll understand why female family is of greater import than sireline.

3nutmeg, the TB is essentially a closed population 99+% based upon a relatively small 17th and 18th century founder population in GB. I don't see that any of that founder 'blood' is in danger of disappearing from the breed except in the top line of the pedigree, which is probably its least important 'slot', at least from the standpoint of maintaining genetic diversity.

[dublino]

Wrong again?????

Your clueless.
Every female has a. A sire and b. A dam
Both give 50% of the genetic material needed for a foal.

And these sires come from yes you guessed it a sireline.
Which makes them just as important 50% + 50% = a foal

[Pan Zareta]

Your clueless.

About some things, I certainly am. But maybe not about this.

Every female has a. A sire and b. A dam
Both give 50% of the genetic material needed for a foal.

That's more or less true of all recombinant nuclear DNA. But not all DNA is recombinant and nuclear.

And these sires come from yes you guessed it a sireline.
Which makes them just as important 50% + 50% = a foal

Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA has a role in determining how cells synthesize and use energy. Variables within the TB mitochondrial genome result in subtle differences between TB female families in how this happens.

Again, the only genetic factor common to all members of a sireline is the near monolithic, non-recominant, male-specific, portion of the tiny equine Y chromosome. Females do not have a Y. Once a male is gelded the male-specific section of theirs is unexpressed.

Please explain for the benefit of my clueless self how you define "sireline" and why it's as important to function and performance as the female family. TIA

[xfactor fan]

Perhaps I should have been more specific. Sirelines, as mostly used, are a marketing tool to promote stallions. Examples are all the sons and grandsons of Storm Cat and AP Indy that went to stud based on their "sireline" not on their racing merits.

As Pan Zareta explained, there are only two sirelines left in the TB gene pool. Horses with Whalebones mutation, and everything else.

As commonly used in this forum, sirelines are blamed for heart attacks, breakdowns, and disease. Or at least one sireline is.

To say a stallion is unimportant is silly. The top line of the pedigree tracks the genetic contribution that has undergone the strongest performance selection. However what is being selected is the complete chromosome package from the nuclear DNA.

Secretariat was a great racehorse not because he came from the Nearco sireline, but because Bold Ruler was a very good race horse, and transmitted a superior set of genes to Secretariat. In terms of genetic material, the pedigree lines in the middle of the pedigree are just as important as the top line.

Secretariat carried a copy of Nearco's Y, but other than that, Discovery, Prince Rose, and Caruso are just as important. and contribute just as much DNA.

As for female families, the bottom line of the pedigree is the only one that carries both the nuclear DNA and the mtDNA. And since the mtDNA has an effect on distance preferences, it could be argued that the female line is more important to track than the male sireline.

Dublino, if the statement about sirelines is "That's one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here.", you have clearly had the good sense to stay away from the never ending thread on Inbreeding. In the course of that thread, the author advocates drinking pee to stay healthy.

There is a huge transition going on in how folks think about breeding. Stallions should be selected for their racing abilities not for a distant male ancestor 10 generations removed from today.

[dublino]

Perhaps I should have been more specific. Sirelines, as mostly used, are a marketing tool to promote stallions. Examples are all the sons and grandsons of Storm Cat and AP Indy that went to stud based on their "sireline" not on their racing merits.

Well sires like The Green Monkey & Kitalpha I have been vocally against.

To say a stallion is unimportant is silly. The top line of the pedigree tracks the genetic contribution that has undergone the strongest performance selection.

You have just defined a sireline.

Secretariat was a great racehorse not because he came from the Nearco sireline, but because Bold Ruler was a very good race horse, and transmitted a superior set of genes to Secretariat. In terms of genetic material, the pedigree lines in the middle of the pedigree are just as important as the top line.

These lines you speak of you mean sire and dam, as they were at one point?

Secretariat carried a copy of Nearco's Y, but other than that, Discovery, Prince Rose, and Caruso are just as important. and contribute just as much DNA.

If they as you say contributed just as much DNA, we have got to take your word that one part of this DNA is more valuable than another?

As for female families, the bottom line of the pedigree is the only one that carries both the nuclear DNA and the mtDNA. And since the mtDNA has an effect on distance preferences, it could be argued that the female line is more important to track than the male sireline.

That sounds very scientific, it could be argued....
If you want to do a proper study that will blow open any theory on genetics look at National Hunt horses.
Look at the pedigrees of horses that win over 16f to 34f over hurdles and steeplechase tracks.
Same sires and female family's that win over 5f.
DNA/genetics are a small part of it nurture and training/conditioning the human input is huge.


Pan Zareta I didn't ignore your reply I hoe you find things in my reply to xfactor here that answer your post!

[Pan Zareta]

Pan Zareta I didn't ignore your reply I hoe you find things in my reply to xfactor here that answer your post!

Dublino, we're in complete agreement as to the impact of the human factor. And, btw, I have studied the National Hunt horses, at least from the female family standpoint. FWIW, over time most of the extant and thriving female families have produced winners at all distances 2f-4mi. A couple of those families seem to err toward stamina, a few toward sprint distance, but they've all proven capable of 'getting it done' at just about any distance.

Obviously, the more important genetic factors shaping aptitudinal abilities are in recombinant DNA, the 50/50 variety, the 'middle' of the pedigree. I agree with XFF that it's selection pressure there that's defining sire success rather than anything on the non-recombinant portion of the Y chromosome which is the only absolute constant between sire and son, grandson, etc.