Foundation pedigrees

[3nutmeg]

I guess I was looking for names of sires/lines that had no ND(Phalaris?), MP, RAN. I have read about many topics on this site about the loss of important sire lines, the lack of diversity in modern pedigrees(inbreedung), out crosses,the importance of performance in mares and stallions on the track, X and Y chromosomes, broodmare sires, breeding for speed, and various breeding theories/philosophies. "IF" sire lines and distant ancestors are not important and the comments that TB's are not lacking in diversity, THEN please explain why there is so much concern and discussion on inbreeding, especially with the sires/lines of ND(Phalaris),MP, RAN, and Unbridled Song?? I understand there are both sides to a TB, sire and dam. I understand that certain lines have soundness and health issues. It's like trying to break the bank at the casino. Everyone has a theory. My interest is in looking for total out crosses, Holy Bull, Alphabet Soup(?). Obviously I'm not looking to make a lot of money. I'm interested in looking for and preserving older blood lines. I also would like to see more longer races. On the general topics page I asked about mares and stallions that didn't race or ran poorly ever produced outstanding offspring or had out ran their pedigrees? Talking on sire lines and diversity, and inbreeding, I believe it is the mare in Arabian horses that is
the most important and influential. They trace strains/ancestry through the mares.

[dublino]

Nut everything outside the first 3 generations, I won't say doesn't really matter, but your clutching at straws trying to make a point about any real influence.

[Bettina]

Hello,
maybe the picture looks a bit better in Europe or Germany.

After sometime several breeder became aware of a Sireline develepod in my home country descending from the imported Sire Dark Ronald, his branch is still existing via Herold - Alchimist - Birkhahn - Literat Surumu - Acatenango - Lando - his sons at stud: Scalo, Paolini, Intendant, Epalo

It's not too lang ago, I found out another one found the way to Australia/NZ via Star Appeal - Appiani - Herbager - Vandale II - Plassy - Bosworth -Son-in-Law - Dark Ronald

Dark Ronald is still regarded as most important of all Sires imported to Germany.

There is one more Sireline to found in my Homecountry descending from Blandford via Bahram - Persian Gulf - Tamerlane - Dschingis Khan - Konigsstuhl - Monsun - Samum - Kamsin

Btw, Monsun and Lando are free of ND.

Regards, Bettina

[3nutmeg]

I'm not trying to make a point. I'm asking questions from people on this forum who know way more about pedigrees and the influence of certain sires.

Several people have asserted:
1. The TB is saturated with ND, MP, RAN.
2. The debate of inbreeding to said sires.
3. Certain lines produce unsoundness(Unbridled Song)
4. All mares and stallions should perform well on the track before you should consider breeding them.
5. The debate of influence of sire/broodmare sire vs. mares DNA.
6. The decline in sire lines NoDouble (?) IDK
7. The North America is breeding for early speed.(no diversity there)

If inbreeding is such a problem then what are the solutions to these questions?

I'm interested the horses that are total out crosses or minimal crosses to the above sires. Is there anyone interested in this? Can you name some horses, stallions?

[Pan Zareta]

I'm interested the horses that are total out crosses or minimal crosses to the above sires. Is there anyone interested in this? Can you name some horses, stallions?

By "the above sires" I'm assuming that you mean Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector and his sire Raise A Native(?). If avoiding all three is the primary goal then start looking among the sons of AP Indy, Broad Brush, Cozzene, Dynaformer, Holy Bull, Runaway Groom, Saint Ballado (and undoubtedly others that I can't think of at the moment).

Have you actually studied the pedigree of the much maligned Unbridled's Song in the context of seeking a sire with minimal crosses to the above sires? Or noticed that in spite of his rep for getting "unsoundness" he's certainly sired his fair share of durable hard-knocking runners?

[xfactor fan]

Dublino,

I'm not understanding what your objections are.

Are you are trying to say that a grand parent on the top side of a pedigree has a greater genetic contribution than a grand parent in the middle of the pedigree?

Or are you saying that the male to male to male DNA is different, or better than male to female to male?

[dublino]

Look down the line of the pedigree of a horse.
2,4,8,16,32 names of horses.
Divide 100 by that number that's the % of DNA each horse has contributed.

[Pan Zareta]

Look down the line of the pedigree of a horse.
2,4,8,16,32 names of horses.
Divide 100 by that number that's the % of DNA each horse has contributed.

That's more or less true of the recombinant nuclear DNA contribution from sire and dam but it's just a very rough estimate for earlier generations because of the vagaries of recombination. It's quite possible for an individual to have no genetic material from a 4th or 5th generation ancestor.

[dublino]

Look down the line of the pedigree of a horse.
2,4,8,16,32 names of horses.
Divide 100 by that number that's the % of DNA each horse has contributed.

It's quite possible for an individual to have no genetic material from a 4th or 5th generation ancestor.

Impossible the 5th generation gives DNA to the 4th which gives DNA to the 3rd etc. etc.

[Bill from WA]

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v81/n ... 4180a.html

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: You said that its quite possible that a horse will inherit no genes at all from a 4th generation sire which on the average will transmit approximately 6.25 % of his or her genes to the horse in question.


Would you also say that it is quite possible that a horse could inherit 12.50% of his 4th generation ancestor's genes?

I think that if on occasion he could get zero of the genes of a 4th generation ancestor, then on occasion he could get twice as much as average from a 4th generation ancestor. Could he then also get three times as much or 4 times as much as average as the genetic wheel of fortune spins through the process of meiosis.

[dublino]

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v81/n5/full/6884180a.html

H1*B2/D5=Q3

If someone can state facts they state them, when they can't they usually end up using nonsense like that to blur the issue.

My head hurts after reading about 2 paragraphs of that crap.

[Pan Zareta]

Would you also say that it is quite possible that a horse could inherit 12.50% of his 4th generation ancestor's genes?

I think that if on occasion he could get zero of the genes of a 4th generation ancestor, then on occasion he could get twice as much as average from a 4th generation ancestor. Could he then also get three times as much or 4 times as much as average as the genetic wheel of fortune spins through the process of meiosis.

Yes, but understand that while both scenarios are possible they represent the extreme ends of the spectrum. In terms of total amounts of autosomal and pseudo-autosomal recombinant DNA each individual receives 50/50 from sire and dam and the vast majority receive about
17.5% - 32.5% from each ancestor in 2d gen
8.75% - 16.25% from ea. 3d gen
4.375% - 8.125% from ea. 4th gen
2.1875% - 4.0625% from ea. 5th gen
and so forth
It takes recombination events strongly favoring/disfavoring an ancestor on all or nearly all of the autosomes and PARs to create significant deviation in either direction from those %s. And given that the TB is an essentially closed breed all of whom descend from the same relatively small founder population it could be pretty difficult to detect.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: In one of your posts above you said that its quite possible that a horse will get zero genes from his fourth generation ancestor. Then in your last post above I think you said that getting zero genes from a fourth generation ancestor represents an extreme case. Could you please clarify your position on this?

[Pan Zareta]

Stan, my apologies if you found it misleading but "quite possible" wasn't meant to imply that a large percentage of individuals receive zero DNA from a 4th generation ancestor. The main point I was trying to make is that the exact amount of autosomal and pseudo-autosomal DNA an individual receives from any given ancestor in the 2d gen and back can only be estimated mathmatically and the reliability of the estimate decreases with generational distance.