Stan
In my opinion a breed shaping sire is one that leaves more than one or two sons that are among the leading sires by progeny earnings year after year. In that regard the Bold Ruler line faded out. I have never had the opinion that Bold Ruler was not a great sire, he was. You like to use the Derby as some sort of indication that the winners are great horses which is not always the case, especially as stallions. The best horse does not always win the Derby and not many Derby winners become leading sires. I do not believe that any of the Bold Ruler line winners in the 70's are represented by active sons at stud in the present. Bold Bidder is in the unique group of stallions that sired two Derby winners, where is he tail male? What a Pleasure was a leading sire two years in a row, where is he tail male? Secretariat was the first Triple Crown winner in 25 years, where is he tail male?
DDT
Bold Ruler sire line
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Pan Zareta
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DDT wrote:Secretariat was the first Triple Crown winner in 25 years, where is he tail male?
Regional and unadvertised. See the "interesting pedigree" thread.
I can think of only two sons of Bold Ruler currently represented in the KY studs, Raja Baba and Boldnesian, and only the latter's branch via AP Indy is still in expansion.
diomed wrote:Breed shapers are also great broodmare sires. Secretariat was a great broodmare sire of sires lest we forget. Storm Cat, AP Indy, Gone West
This is very true, but the OP was specifically addressing sire lines and tail-male descent. From that perspective, Secretariat was not a particularly noteworthy sire.
"you cannot be brilliant if you cannot run" -- bdw0617
Breed shapers
DDT: According to your definition in order for a stallion to be a breed shaper the male line of that horse must be successful year after year.
I always thought it was the entire pedigree that lives on in future descedents that places a stallion among the breed shapers.
According to your definition Buckpasser would not be considered a breed shaper. However, Buckpasser is found frequently in modern day stars
and inbreeding to Buckpasser is very common now. In my view Buckpasser is a breed shaper.
AP Indy is a great source of stamina in modern pedigrees. His male line and his female side continue to be influential in modern day stars. And Bold Ruler appears top and bottom in AP Indy's pedigree. Utilizing the entire pedigree Bold Ruler lives on thru AP Indy and in time AP Indy may just become a great breed shaper as well.
I always thought it was the entire pedigree that lives on in future descedents that places a stallion among the breed shapers.
According to your definition Buckpasser would not be considered a breed shaper. However, Buckpasser is found frequently in modern day stars
and inbreeding to Buckpasser is very common now. In my view Buckpasser is a breed shaper.
AP Indy is a great source of stamina in modern pedigrees. His male line and his female side continue to be influential in modern day stars. And Bold Ruler appears top and bottom in AP Indy's pedigree. Utilizing the entire pedigree Bold Ruler lives on thru AP Indy and in time AP Indy may just become a great breed shaper as well.
Stan
I think you argue to argue Stan, and I certainly consider the entire pedigree important, you are the one that clings to the sire line theory especially the Raise a Native line. I have never asked you to change your opinion. You bait us with questions and in the end you change up and say something entirely different from your original posts. This time your question was why it took so long for a BOLD RULER LINE Derby winner. You think it was because the line fell out of fashion with breeders and I say there were not that many Bold Ruler line stallions available during the time period discussed. Don't try to put words in my mouth, I do enough damage all by myself.
DDT
I think you argue to argue Stan, and I certainly consider the entire pedigree important, you are the one that clings to the sire line theory especially the Raise a Native line. I have never asked you to change your opinion. You bait us with questions and in the end you change up and say something entirely different from your original posts. This time your question was why it took so long for a BOLD RULER LINE Derby winner. You think it was because the line fell out of fashion with breeders and I say there were not that many Bold Ruler line stallions available during the time period discussed. Don't try to put words in my mouth, I do enough damage all by myself.
DDT
Great article about AP Indy and his legendary influence.
http://www.drf.com/news/catching-ap-indy-still-carrying-himself-champion
http://www.drf.com/news/catching-ap-indy-still-carrying-himself-champion
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Patuxet
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Here's another insightful A.P. Indy article, a Pedigree Analysis titled "Dreaming Of A.P. Indy". Author John Sparkman concludes:
"If A.P. Indy is not what every contemporary breeder is aiming for, then we are doing something wrong."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... of-ap-indy
Here's another earlier in-depth analysis by Sparkman from Thoroughbred Times
http://www.opencomputing.ca/ormonde/ftp ... 0sires.pdf
"If A.P. Indy is not what every contemporary breeder is aiming for, then we are doing something wrong."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... of-ap-indy
Here's another earlier in-depth analysis by Sparkman from Thoroughbred Times
http://www.opencomputing.ca/ormonde/ftp ... 0sires.pdf
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Breed shaping
DDT: Discussions can often stray from their starting points. You are the one who said Bold Ruler was not a breed shaping sire. Do you still maintain that point of view?
I was not trying to bait you with my post. I found this thread to be very interesting and when you said Bold Ruler was not a breed shaping sire that boggled my mind because I always thought he had a great influence on the breed thru Seattle Slew and Secretariat and AP Indy and always thought of him as a breed shaper.
I was not trying to bait you with my post. I found this thread to be very interesting and when you said Bold Ruler was not a breed shaping sire that boggled my mind because I always thought he had a great influence on the breed thru Seattle Slew and Secretariat and AP Indy and always thought of him as a breed shaper.
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Pan Zareta
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A broader look at North American G1 winner sireline distribution 1994-2012/13. BR=Bold Ruler, ND=Northern Dancer, RAN=Raise A Native
BC Distaff BR-1, ND-6, RAN-8, other-4
Acorn BR-2, ND-10, RAN-2, other-5
Alabama BR-5, ND-2, RAN-7, other-5
CCAO BR-6, ND-3, RAN-8, other-2
KY Oaks BR-6, ND-5, RAN-6, other-3
Mother Goose BR-7, ND-4, RAN-4, other-4
BC Classic BR-0, ND-4, RAN-6, other-9
Belmont BR-1, ND-3, RAN-13, other-2
JCGC BR-5, ND-2, RAN-7, other-5
KY Derby BR-1, ND-2, RAN-12, other-5
Preakness BR-1, ND-6, RAN-11, other-1
Travers BR-3, ND-3, RAN-11, other-2
The vast majority of RAN's dominance is through Mr. Prospector. RAN turns up a handful of times elsewhere via sons Alydar and Majestic Prince. Otherwise, it's all Mr. P. The majority of Bold Ruler is through Boldnesian via Slew & Indy, but sons Irish Castle, Raja Baba and What A Pleasure also make their presence known in topline, and I think it's worth noting that a significant percentage of "other" traces in tail male to Bold Ruler's sire Nasrullah. Northern Dancer's influence is more diffuse, through a larger number of sons.
Stan, Buckpasser 'suffered' from some of the same limitation in number of foals/crops as Bold Ruler. Personally, I don't consider either of them "breed-shaping" simply because from a global perspective it's just not that difficult to find pedigrees of elite runners devoid of one or both.
BC Distaff BR-1, ND-6, RAN-8, other-4
Acorn BR-2, ND-10, RAN-2, other-5
Alabama BR-5, ND-2, RAN-7, other-5
CCAO BR-6, ND-3, RAN-8, other-2
KY Oaks BR-6, ND-5, RAN-6, other-3
Mother Goose BR-7, ND-4, RAN-4, other-4
BC Classic BR-0, ND-4, RAN-6, other-9
Belmont BR-1, ND-3, RAN-13, other-2
JCGC BR-5, ND-2, RAN-7, other-5
KY Derby BR-1, ND-2, RAN-12, other-5
Preakness BR-1, ND-6, RAN-11, other-1
Travers BR-3, ND-3, RAN-11, other-2
The vast majority of RAN's dominance is through Mr. Prospector. RAN turns up a handful of times elsewhere via sons Alydar and Majestic Prince. Otherwise, it's all Mr. P. The majority of Bold Ruler is through Boldnesian via Slew & Indy, but sons Irish Castle, Raja Baba and What A Pleasure also make their presence known in topline, and I think it's worth noting that a significant percentage of "other" traces in tail male to Bold Ruler's sire Nasrullah. Northern Dancer's influence is more diffuse, through a larger number of sons.
Stan, Buckpasser 'suffered' from some of the same limitation in number of foals/crops as Bold Ruler. Personally, I don't consider either of them "breed-shaping" simply because from a global perspective it's just not that difficult to find pedigrees of elite runners devoid of one or both.
Distorted reality
Pan Zareta: Frank Mitchell, author of Racehorse Breeding Theories, does not agree with that assessment of Bold Ruler.
In an article Distorted Reality/Bloodstock in the Bluegrass he states that Distorted Humor in the future may rank alongside of the breed shaping sires Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, and Bold Ruler.
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In an article Distorted Reality/Bloodstock in the Bluegrass he states that Distorted Humor in the future may rank alongside of the breed shaping sires Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, and Bold Ruler.
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Sid Fernando
Pan Zareta. Sid Fernando in an article Super Saver/ Sid Fernando Observed
states that Buckpasser was also a breed shaping sire.
Evidently great broodmare sires can also be breed shapers.
states that Buckpasser was also a breed shaping sire.
Evidently great broodmare sires can also be breed shapers.
Stan
I agree with you and others that great broodmare sires can also be thought of as breed shapers. Buckpasser daughters have produced leading sires and broodmare sires. Secretariat daughters have produced Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, Gone West, Dehere, Chief's Crown, all top sires and broodmare sires. I consider both Buckpasser and Secretariat breed shapers but only on the female side. It is just an opinion, it does not matter if it is correct or wrong. It is like asking who would win a race between Man o War and Secretariat. The answer should be who cares, they were both great runners.
DDT
I agree with you and others that great broodmare sires can also be thought of as breed shapers. Buckpasser daughters have produced leading sires and broodmare sires. Secretariat daughters have produced Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, Gone West, Dehere, Chief's Crown, all top sires and broodmare sires. I consider both Buckpasser and Secretariat breed shapers but only on the female side. It is just an opinion, it does not matter if it is correct or wrong. It is like asking who would win a race between Man o War and Secretariat. The answer should be who cares, they were both great runners.
DDT