Pedigree Query

If you look at his son below

http://www.pedigreequery.com/con+man

you see how 1 generation takes the inbreeding out of the first 5 generations.

As far as inbreeding goes, I don't think you can beat the pedigree of this mare I ran across a few years back...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bonjour+bonita

Technically, Hail to All is not inbred. His dam, however, is.

Right, Fireslam. Bonjour Bonita, on the other hand

We can see the difference of inbreeding, before the arrival of our FB, in the early 80s. HTA inherited his inbreeding from 6 different sire lines. Not the only one sire line of the present.

HTA 6 different sire lines are: 3 X 5 X 5 MOW=Fair Play----5 X 5 Pharos=Ph.----5 X 5 Plucky Liege mare=Spearmint----5 X 5 Teddy----5 X 5 Fairy Gold mare=Bend Or----5 X 5 Rock Sand---3 X 5 Friars Carse mare=Rock Sand.

louis finochio wrote:HTA inherited his inbreeding from 6 different sire lines.

No he didn't. Genetically, there are only two sire lines in the modern TB, Whalebone (1807) and non-Whalebone. They differ only at a single letter in the genetic code on the male-specific portion of the Y chromosome. Females don't have that. It's unexpressed in neutered males. Sire line is a meaningless concept. Inbreeding cannot be precisely determined from paper (pedigree) alone and cannot even be crudely estimated by doing no more than quantifying occurrences of major and minor 'bottleneck' sires.

Jim T. gets my vote for most inbred.

Pan Zareta wrote:

louis finochio wrote:HTA inherited his inbreeding from 6 different sire lines.

No he didn't. Genetically, there are only two sire lines in the modern TB, Whalebone (1807) and non-Whalebone. They differ only at a single letter in the genetic code on the male-specific portion of the Y chromosome. Females don't have that. It's unexpressed in neutered males. Sire line is a meaningless concept. Inbreeding cannot be precisely determined from paper (pedigree) alone and cannot even be crudely estimated by doing no more than quantifying occurrences of major and minor 'bottleneck' sires.

Jim T. gets my vote for most inbred.

You might as well talk to yourself, PZ. "Does NOT compute" comes to mind.

As for Jim T ... why is it that the "breeders" that try this kind of inbreeding seem to almost inevitably inbreed to horses that probably shouldn't have been left stallions to begin with?

Linda_d wrote:....As for Jim T ... why is it that the "breeders" that try this kind of inbreeding seem to almost inevitably inbreed to horses that probably shouldn't have been left stallions to begin with?

Well it WAS in Texas in 1927 There may not have been a lot of options. Jim T's pedigree, though, is highly reminiscent of many, much more recent, Quarter Horse pedigrees that I have seen.

This horse was close to being voted Horse of the Year in 1981. A very talented and game horse he was:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eleven+stitches

Note his close relation CHARLEVAL:
:http://www.pedigreequery.com/charleval

madelyn wrote:

Linda_d wrote:....As for Jim T ... why is it that the "breeders" that try this kind of inbreeding seem to almost inevitably inbreed to horses that probably shouldn't have been left stallions to begin with?

Well it WAS in Texas in 1927 There may not have been a lot of options. Jim T's pedigree, though, is highly reminiscent of many, much more recent, Quarter Horse pedigrees that I have seen.

Sadly that is true about the QHs ... and my statement stands there, too.

I thought Jim T might have a connection to Bob Kleberg because he did successfully use very close inbreeding to set the type of his ranch horses (although not his TBs as far as I know) but Jim T's pedigree doesn't seem to be of the right bloodlines. Maybe somebody was copying Kleberg ... or maybe he was just ... ignorant.

I am constantly amazed at how little common sense many people have, especially today, when it comes to breeding animals like dogs or horses. If they can breed and they have papers, breed them no matter how closely related they are or what faults they might have!

Kleberg used the same inbreeding strategies with ALL his horses. He also developed the Santa Gertrudes cattle using them.

Check out this Kleberg bred, one that he lost for a $1500 claiming price:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/stymie

And this wonderful champion filly from 25 years later:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gallant+bloom

Linda_d wrote:"Does NOT compute" comes to mind.

Yeah. So does "brick wall".

As for Jim T ... why is it that the "breeders" that try this kind of inbreeding seem to almost inevitably inbreed to horses that probably shouldn't have been left stallions to begin with?

The inbreeding was to horses that were successful on the county fair and 'bush' circuits. That's about all the racing there was in Texas between 1909 and the opening of Arlington Downs in 1929. The breeder doesn't seem to have raced much if any at recognized venues outside TX. The degree of inbreeding is unusual for any time, including the actual time and place. It appears to have been quite deliberate, surely done in the interest of setting type, and there was no lack of options. The state was packed with Remount TB sires at the time.

Barcaldine wrote:Kleberg used the same inbreeding strategies with ALL his horses. He also developed the Santa Gertrudes cattle using them.

Check out this Kleberg bred, one that he lost for a $1500 claiming price:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/stymie

And this wonderful champion filly from 25 years later:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gallant+bloom

With his QHs, he in-bred closer than he did his TBs. He was breeding sons of Old Sorrel to daughters of Old Sorrel and then breeding offspring back to Old Sorrel and other sons of Old Sorrel.

He probably never had a TB as good as a TB as Old Sorrel was as a QH.

As for Stymie and Gallant Bloom, Man O War, Colin, and Broomstick were all great runners and producers (well Colin was largely sterile but he was fertile enough that the only extant male line to Domino goes through him via Broad Brush's sons). Mahmoud and his dam, Plucky Liege, are significant producers.

Jim T's family tree ... not so much.

DELEGATE, champion sprinter, 134 starts, 2 to 9.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/delegate

SARAZEN, twice horse of the year, champion 2yo (undefeated in 10 starts), 55 starts, 2 to 6. Set NWR for a mile.

This pedigree is what I call a 'modified hybrid.' Note the bro/sis inbreeding in his dam.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sarazen