broodmare sires

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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stancaris
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broodmare sires

Postby stancaris » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:30 pm

To all: What percentage of stakes winners from foals would be the average for a broodmare sire?

LB
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Postby LB » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:23 am

If you look at this list--which shows, among other things, cumulative stakes winners and cumulative foal numbers for the top broodmare sires--you can do your own calculations: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... /broodmare

kimberley mine
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Re: broodmare sires

Postby kimberley mine » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:58 am

stancaris wrote:To all: What percentage of stakes winners from foals would be the average for a broodmare sire?


The best answer is a rousing "it depends."

Things that spring to mind immediately:

1. Quality of mares bred to the stallion. If he gets several books full of the likes of Personal Ensign, Cuando Quiere, Toussaud, and Urban Sea, the power of those mares will affect the stallion's broodmare sire stats.

2. How many mares the stallion is bred to. If your mare is by Raj Waki (VERY good stallion, very few foals) and throws a stakes winner, it will affect the percentage more than a single Giant's Causeway mare throwing a stakes winner (as GC has thousands of foals now).

3. Whether or not the mares bred to the stallion suited his pedigree and racing aptitude. Think Running Stag in Texas--very good distance turf runner who got better as he got older, standing in a state that focuses on sprints. That knocks on to the next generation....a Running Stag mare in Texas may not be able to find a stallion who suits her.

4. Sometimes a stallion sires broodmares whose performance is way above and beyond what his racing progeny performance would indicate. Quiet American immediately comes to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, Include joins that category. Comparing Quiet American and Smoke Glacken as racehorse stallions is very fair. I don't think you can fairly compare the two as broodmare sires, given how very, very excellent QA has been. At a higher level, Seeking the Gold versus Seattle Slew--both unquestionably good sires of racehorses but I'd give Seeking the Gold the nod for a sire of broodmares.

5. Progeny performance of the stallion in general. If the racing progeny of the stallion are slow, then it's much more likely that his daughters' progeny will also tend to be slow than if he sired very high-quality horses. If he sired high-quality horses regardless of the mares he was bred to, then it's more likely that his daughters are fast, and will produce fast foals.

stancaris
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ballpark figure

Postby stancaris » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:53 pm

Is it possible to come up with a ballpark figure that would represent a percentage that would be expected for an average broodmare sire?

xfactor fan
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Postby xfactor fan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:09 pm

kimberley mine


I'd like to add the skill of the humans booking mares. Or the human selection factor. Careful stallion management can do wonders, bad management can kill a stallion's chances.

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:18 pm

Xfactor, I would agree, but I'm curious as to how that stallion manager does that. Given that he's looking for a good physical, do most managers care much about the bm sire, or bm sire line? Most under $20k are probably trying to get as many mares as possible I should think with the higher value guys being more selective because of supply / demand.

Rubiano and Defensive Play are also outstanding sons of Fappiano, as bm sires and Cryptoclearance isn't bad. Theoretically, contributing only 1/4 the influence in a pedigree if the bm sires numbers are consistently good, I think there's some there he is passing on of significance. Actually I'm betting on that.

jm
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Jeff
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Postby Jeff » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:13 am

Buckpasser would certainly be way above average, whatever the average is, I'd guess 10x above average. I believe it's got something to do with Buckpasser's X chromosome. Of course Buckpasser's male line were all good broodmare sire's, Pharamond, Menow, Tom Fool, it seems that Buckpasser continues that family tradition. His dam being the great Busanda didn't hurt either.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/buckpasser

Pitbull599
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What do u guys think

Postby Pitbull599 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:24 am

What do u guys think about honor grades as a broodmare sire
Their are no winers in a war everyone looses

Pitbull599
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What do u guys think

Postby Pitbull599 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:28 am

What do u guys think about honor grades as a broodmare sire
Their are no winers in a war everyone looses

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:03 pm

If you run a hypo five cross pedigree with a mare on Equineline from that bm sire, it will give you stats. Out of 259 mares, over 1000 foals the average earnings as a bm sire is .93 which is slightly below average by 1 measure. (2% stakes winners about normal) but as mentioned above, opportunity and a lot of other factors come in since it's only 1/4 of the pedigree. By comparison, Danzig's excellence as a bm sire is represented by a 1.57, 5% sw - with all the above caveats.

jm
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.