Secretariat and Buckpasser

[stancaris]

Isn't it amazing that 7 of the top 12 leading broodmare sires in North America for the entire year of 2013 carry either Secretariat or Buckpasser in the X passing position. These 7 are as follows:

Ranked #1 Storm Cat ( Secretariat is his broodmare sire)
Ranked #2 A.P. Indy ( Secretariat is his broodmare sire)
Ranked #4 Danehill (Buckpasser is his second damsire)
Ranked #6 Seeking the Gold (Buckpasser is his broodmare sire)
Ranked #10 Woodman (Buckpasser is his Broodmare sire)
Ranked #11 Dehere (Secretariat is his broodmare sire)
Ranked #12 Unbridled (Buckpasser is his third damsire)

Secretariat and Buckpasser who did not become known as a sire of sires have a lasting influence on the breed by way of their daughters' descendants.

[DDT]

Stan

Opportunity of the listed broodmare sires has much more influence than Buckpasser and Secretariat’s X chromosome. You continue to assert the importance of the X passing position, and I would agree that on the surface it appears that the X involved carries a lot of weight, however, if this were the case why are the many other sons of the broadmares involved not on the list? Every son of these mares do not make the list because they lacked the opportunity to cover high quality mares. All of the listed broodmare sires stood at major Kentucky farms with the exception of Danehill and possibly Dehere.

DDT

[stancaris]

Based on your post above one would also expect to see Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Damascus and Mr. Prospector appear frequently in the X passing position of the leading broodmare sires over the last several years but THAT IS NOT THE CASE AND THESE ABOVE MENTIONED GREATS ALL STOOD AT MAJOR BREEDING FARMS.

Why has Buckpasser and Secretariat had such a great influence on the leading broodmare sires over the last 6 years when in fact they were nothing special as a sire of sires?

[DDT]

Stan

I do not know where you have been the last 25 years but to my recollection Mr. P led the list for 9 or 10 years in a row, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Spectacular Bid are all considered as successful broadmare sires. There are many reasons why Secretariat and Buckpasser did not sire sons that were successful sires, the stud book is full of them. The total number of sons that have these two sires in an X passing position that are not leading broadmare sires is much greater that the successful ones, why is that?

DDT

[stancaris]

DDT: My question is as follows: How come we do not find Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Damascus and Mr. Prospector frequently in the X passing position of the top 12 leading broodmare sires over the last 6 years? These above greats were certainly mated with outstanding mares and stood at major Breeding Farms whereas WE DO FIND SECRETARIAT AND BUCKPASSER FREQUENTLY IN THE X PASSING POSITION OF THE TOP 12 BROODMARE SIRES OVER THE LAST 6 YEARS. In fact Sec and Buckpasser are found in the X passing position of the top 12 broodmare sires over the last 6 years in more than 40% of these leaders.

Regarding Mr. Prospector: Although he led the broodmare sire list 9 times he is NOT frequently found in the X passing position of the top 12 broodmare sire leaders over the last 6 years from 2008-2013

[DDT]

Stan

All of this takes time Stan, and in time daughters of the listed stallions may well produce a few sons that make the leading broodmare sire's list. You must also remember that using progeny earnings as a means to determine overall success has a lot of flaws, one or two big earners can land a stallion in the top 12 in any given year. The X passing position may be very important for success as a broodmare sire, you have not proven that it is, only that it appears as though it might be a key to the success of Secretariat and Buckpasser. Noting the fact that both of these horses were racing machines, I believe that the other 31 chromosomes and the genes they carry and passed on have much more to do with their eventual success than the X chromosomes.

DDT

[Jeff]

"The X passing position may be very important for success as a broodmare sire, you have not proven that it is, only that it appears as though it might be a key to the success of Secretariat and Buckpasser." Quote DDT

Stan has shared tons of analytical information to suggest that Secretariat and Buckpasser in the X passing position might be a key to success. If anybody could prove anything about how breeding is going to determine which horse is going to cross the finish line first, well that's just plain silly now isn't it. No one has yet been able to prove which breeding theories are going to 'prove' which horse is going to cross the finish line first. Stan never said anything about proof, he just enjoys writing about the magnificence of some great broodmare sires, and many of us enjoy it.

Anyone with any wit of intelligence at all knew before Stan ever mentioned it that Secretariat and Buckpasser were good broodmare sires.
for whatever reason

Jeff

[Pan Zareta]

If anybody could prove anything about how breeding is going to determine which horse is going to cross the finish line first, well that's just plain silly now isn't it. No one has yet been able to prove which breeding theories are going to 'prove' which horse is going to cross the finish line first. Stan never said anything about proof, he just enjoys writing about the magnificence of some great broodmare sires, and many of us enjoy it.

Are you famliar with Stan's published claim that Buckpasser in X passing position is one factor predictive of Triple Crown success because of either the mythical X-linked large heart gene or some other "extraordinary" gene on the x?

This presumes, with no credible foundation whatsoever, that superior X chromosomes are the reason for daughters being the usual conduits of Secretariat and Buckpasser in pedigrees of the top tier of the contemporary TB population. A more obvious and objective explanation is that their overall progeny performance simply did not place Buckpasser and Secretariat among the most successful general sires of their respective eras. Pressure against breeding within the top tier is stronger on males to begin with, giving their sons a double disadvantage. Ergo, Secretariat and Buckpasser's conduits there are usually daughters. Interestingly, the only exceptions to that 'rule' among pedigrees of the top 100 broodmare sires for 2013 are D'Accord (Secretariat) and L'Enjoleur (Buckpasser), both sons of Northern Dancer's superb daughter Fanfreluche.

[DDT]

Jeff

My reasons for telling Stan that he has not proven his theory is because he continues to make statements as fact when they are not proven. He may have provided "tons" of information on this subject, however, he ignores the fact that the top three broodmare sires that keep Buckpasser daughters on the list were all sired by Mr. Prospector, in fact the majority of all of his daughter's that have produced sons that made the list in the last 10-12 years were all sired by top sires. In this regard he stated that Mr. Prospector does not appear in the X passing position on a regular basis without regard to the time involved needed to achieve this. In 2013 Mr. Prospector is the sire, grandsire or great grandsire of 25 of the 100 horses on the list with Pulpit and Tale of the Cat having Mr. Prospector in an X passing position. With Malibu Moon, Flatter, Congrats. Mineshaft, Scat Daddy and others coming along it is very likely that the number of broodmare sires with Mr. Prospector in the X passing position making the list will increase. Stan also continues to ignore a stallions opportunity as a major factor in broodmare success. From 1924 through 2013 there have been 90 broodmare sire leaders and 41 (45%) stood at Claiborne. Both Secretariat and Buckpasser stood at Claiborne and it would be very foolish to ignore this fact.

DDT

[stancaris]

The following data illustrates the profound influence that Buckpasser and Secretariat have had over the last 7 years. It is a fact that 40.9% of the top 15 broodmare sires from 2007-2013 carry Buckpasser or Secretariat in the X passing position. The data and rankings of these broodmare sires follow:

2013
1) Storm Cat
2) AP Indy
4) Danehill
6) Seeking the Gold
10) Woodman
11)Dehere
12)Unbridled
14)Gone West

2012
1) Storm Cat
2) Danehill
5) AP Indy
6) Seeking the Gold
11) Gone West
13) Woodman
14) Unbridled

2011
1) Danehill
3) Storm Cat
4) AP Indy
5) Woodman
Unbridled
12) Gone West
15) Seeking the Gold

2010
2) Woodman
3) Storm Cat
4) Seeking the Gold
AP Indy
10) Danehill
15) Gone West

2009
2) Miswaki
3) Seeking the Gold
5) Woodman
7) Storm Cat
13) Danehill

2008
3) Woodman
Storm Cat
14) Seeking the Gold
15 ) Danehill

2007
5) Storm Cat
6) Woodman
11) Seeking the Gold
12) AP Indy
14) Miswaki
15 Danehill

You can say that it is NOT the X chromosome that has anything to do with the above success of Sec and Buckpasser but one should at least realize that one thing that all the above broodmare sires have in common is either the presence of Buckpasser or the presence of AP Indy in the X passing position. And AP Indy has both Secretariat and Buckpasser in the X passing position. Sec is his broodmare sire and Buckpasser is his second damsire.

[stancaris]

I meant to say that all the broodmare sires listed in my above post have either Buckpasser or Secretariat in the X passing position.

[Joltman]

I wonder about the possible effect of Princequillo in both BP and Sec., given that he was leading BM sire multiple times and prominent in both. A generation ago, other leading BM sires have Princequillo in their pedigree. In terms of genetics, many do not value the earlier ancestors, but if something like looks or conformation can be passed down from prior generations, no reason racing aptitude couldn't. The issue though is that the influence is not consistent or predictable and probably recedes in time.

jm

[Pan Zareta]

I wonder about the possible effect of Princequillo in both BP and Sec., given that he was leading BM sire multiple times and prominent in both.

Not sure what you mean. Secretariat has Princequillo in his pedigree. Buckpasser does not. The two (Buckpasser & Secretariat) have no shared ancestors in their first three generations. In 4th and 5th they share Phalaris, Polymelus, Sun Briar, Teddy with many/most other sires of their era. The pattern of their occurrence in the pedigrees of leading broodmare sires differs rather markedly from Princequillo's in that the latter can be found there far more frequently than Sec. and BP via some of his sons (Prince Blessed, Prince John, Round Table, et al.).

It makes for impressive statistics to consolidate Buckpasser's & Secretariat's accomplishments as broodmare sires but other than for the sake of impression there's no apparent logical reason to do so. Similarity of occurrence patterns between them end when comparing appearances in non x-passing positions. Due to the success of the sons of AP Indy, Gone West, and Storm Cat as broodmare sires (and general sires), Secretariat actually appears in the pedigrees of the top 100 broodmare sires (and general sires) about twice as frequently in non X-passing position as in X passing. When Buckpasser appears in non X-passing position it's usually via sons of AP Indy or Danehill who both have him as 2d broodmare sire, or Unbridled who has him as 3d broodmare sire. Buckpasser's ratio of x-passing to non x-passing occurrence among the top 100 North American broodmare sires 2013 is closer to 1:1.

Imo, the closest parallel to Secretariat's performance as broodmare sire is not his own broodmare sire Princequillo but his sire's broodmare sire, Discovery. His stamp on the breed is largely via a few daughters that produced extremely successful sires, i.e. Geisha, Miss Disco, and My Recipe, dams of Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, and Intentionally. At this point it looks as if Secretariat's influence on the breed will be primarily through Secrettame, Terlingua, and Weekend Surprise, dams of Gone West, Storm Cat, and AP Indy.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta wrote: "It makes for impressive statistics to consolidate Buckpasser's and Secretariat's accomplishments as broodmare sires but other than for the sake of impression there is no apparent logical reason to do so."

Is it worth considering just why Buckpasser and Secretariat were relatively unsuccessful as sires of sires but as broodmare sires they generated many superior male offspring that became influential stallions?

Could the above also be related to the fact that broodmare sires transmit their X chromosome to all their daughters but none of their sons?

Could the above also be related to the superior broodmares --Busanda and Somethingroyal?

Or were the X chromosomes from Busanda and Somethingroyal just run of the mill?

Buckpasser and Secretariat over the last 7 years have had a profound influence on the breed as illustrated by the data I supplied. 40% of the top 15 broodmare sires for the last 7 years carry either Buckpasser or Secretariat in the X passing position.

[/b]

[Joltman]

I wonder about the possible effect of Princequillo in both BP and Sec., given that he was leading BM sire multiple times and prominent in both.

Not sure what you mean. Secretariat has Princequillo in his pedigree. Buckpasser does not. The two (Buckpasser & Secretariat) have no shared ancestors in their first three generations. In 4th and 5th they share Phalaris, Polymelus, Sun Briar, Teddy with many/most other sires of their era. The pattern of their occurrence in the pedigrees of leading broodmare sires differs rather markedly from Princequillo's in that the latter can be found there far more frequently than Sec. and BP via some of his sons (Prince Blessed, Prince John, Round Table, et al.).

It makes for impressive statistics to consolidate Buckpasser's & Secretariat's accomplishments as broodmare sires but other than for the sake of impression there's no apparent logical reason to do so. Similarity of occurrence patterns between them end when comparing appearances in non x-passing positions. Due to the success of the sons of AP Indy, Gone West, and Storm Cat as broodmare sires (and general sires), Secretariat actually appears in the pedigrees of the top 100 broodmare sires (and general sires) about twice as frequently in non X-passing position as in X passing. When Buckpasser appears in non X-passing position it's usually via sons of AP Indy or Danehill who both have him as 2d broodmare sire, or Unbridled who has him as 3d broodmare sire. Buckpasser's ratio of x-passing to non x-passing occurrence among the top 100 North American broodmare sires 2013 is closer to 1:1.

Imo, the closest parallel to Secretariat's performance as broodmare sire is not his own broodmare sire Princequillo but his sire's broodmare sire, Discovery. His stamp on the breed is largely via a few daughters that produced extremely successful sires, i.e. Geisha, Miss Disco, and My Recipe, dams of Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, and Intentionally. At this point it looks as if Secretariat's influence on the breed will be primarily through Secrettame, Terlingua, and Weekend Surprise, dams of Gone West, Storm Cat, and AP Indy.

Thanks PZ - don't know what I was thinking of, maybe Spend a Buck. Good point on Discovery.

jm