Pedigree Query

Pros and cons? I've very rarely seen it in pedigrees.

Danzig Inbreds (4x4 and closer) have won 291 races in New Zealand since Aug. 2012 (2012-2013 season) to 08 Oct. 2015 (2015-2016 season).

https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/home/sire-info-/danzig-inbreeding

I have a 2 x 4 Danzig yearling who I couldn't send to FTK July because he had an ocd in the stifle (no damage to the joint) and there wasn't enough time to recover from surgery and get him prepped. He definitely did not get the "small" gene....





http://www.pedigreequery.com/echo+in+laughter

I've been deliberating the same question myself. I have a two year old, soon to be three, filly who is 2x3. Probably wouldn't have bred her so tightly myself but wanted the mare and she was in foal to Langfuhr. Mine is small. She showed some promise early at the track this year. Is very quick, but couldn't carry it beyond about 4f at two. That might be a pro and con rolled into one statement. She did manage a 2nd in three or four starts though and hope she improves as she matures at three.

Biggest con I was worried about is injury risk, doubling up on that stigma. But I do like thinking about what she might be able to do as a broodmare, if I can add some size and an appropriate inbred stallion free of Danzig. Would like to see her establish some class and earnings first though.

jeff9061 wrote:I've been deliberating the same question myself. I have a two year old, soon to be three, filly who is 2x3. Probably wouldn't have bred her so tightly myself but wanted the mare and she was in foal to Langfuhr. Mine is small. She showed some promise early at the track this year. Is very quick, but couldn't carry it beyond about 4f at two. That might be a pro and con rolled into one statement. She did manage a 2nd in three or four starts though and hope she improves as she matures at three.

Biggest con I was worried about is injury risk, doubling up on that stigma. But I do like thinking about what she might be able to do as a broodmare, if I can add some size and an appropriate inbred stallion free of Danzig. Would like to see her establish some class and earnings first though.

Many Langfuhr's ARE small and it has nothing to do with inbreeding to Danzig. That's what he throws more often than not. Along with the size, they (and Danzig's in general) can also be prone to problems with their knees and can sometimes be pigeon toed but that too is something that people are not surprised to see from that line. I did not know these things when I decided to send my mare to Langfuhr (I found out when I started asking around about selling him and was told that most people would not want a Langfuhr because if you've seen one you've seen them all ) and if I had an unlimited budget I'd gladly go back to him or any other Danzig line stallion because I think the talent that he had trumps the risk.

David Dink, on his blog “Boojum's Bonanza”, recently reported on his crunching of the numbers for 11 prominent sires duplicated 4 x 4 or closer. The results for Danzig were, according to Dink,“in line with his anemic 2.38% stakes winners from foals”.

https://ddink55.wordpress.com/2016/01/1 ... g-nothing/

Under a picture of Langfuhr in “Crown Jewels”, a book of reproductions of paintings by Richard Stone Reeves, the artist notes: “Of all the good Canadian horses I have painted, this champion stands out as being the most attractive – in looks and behavior.”

Many of the best bred "inbred" ones don't go through the sales ring. There are plenty of good ones in Europe and Australia and there will be more because of Frankel.
Let's see how some of these do
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mirage+dancer3
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nothing+but+dreams2
http://www.pedigreequery.com/europium5

Langfuhr is very classy, just like Quiet American, pull them out of their stall and they strike a pose. It's just a shame he isn't more commercially appealing, I'd love to send my mare back to him but I can't afford to keep them all.

David Dink, on his blog “Boojum's Bonanza”, recently reported on his crunching of the numbers for 11 prominent sires duplicated 4 x 4 or closer. The results for Danzig were, according to Dink,“in line with his anemic 2.38% stakes winners from foals”.

Interesting.

What jumped WAY out at me were Fappiano and Blushing Groom inbreeding....two lines that are notorious for doing very well with a return of their own, and of one another. This is true for mares in those pedigrees as well as the stallions, when they are in broodmare sire positions, and along pure mare lines, and they all come back to the mare Lady Juror.

It is possible that what the blogger is capturing is not that inbreeding is a crapshoot, but rather that certain lines DO like to be inbred to far above and beyond all others. For the rest, either there is a definite performance decline to inbreeding to a particular ancestor (such as soundness concerns) or that the relative class of the sire and dam are the driving forces behind any success or failure of the cross.

I have seen some evidence from AUS/NZ that linebreeding to Danehill through two sons is really bad, through two daughters is merely bad, and through a daughter and a son seems to be useful.

kimberley mine wrote: "What jumped WAY out at me were Fappiano and Blushing Groom inbreeding....two lines that are notorious for doing very well with a return of their own, and of one another. This is true for mares in those pedigrees as well as the stallions, when they are in broodmare sire positions, and along pure mare lines..."

Interesting observation. If you could (and no one objects to the off-topic drift) I'd appreciate your expanding on this using examples specifically involving Rahy.

Thanks!

Hello,
accidently I looked through the past posts and saw this topic.

As it happened I spot 2 Throughbreds running in Germany with inbreeding to Danzig.
First Northern Star (Sea the Stars - North Queen by Desert King) a 3 year old, the colt is bred
4x4 Danzig. He ran recently a third place at the "Union Rennen", 2200 meters, Group 2 an important prep race for the German Derby.

Today the "German 1000 Guineas" (fillies ) will be run. One starter is the Englishbred "Unforgetable Filly" (Sepoy - Valiani by Oasis Dream, 3 year old). She is 4x4 Danzig + more inbreeding/linebredding.
She was sixth in the English Version and had won a race at Listed Level.

regards, Bettina

Hello,
here is one more adding.

Boscaccio (Mount Nelson - Bianca di Medici by Medician). He was the top 3 year old in Germany last season, until the Derby were ran unplaced . Last Weekend he made a winning return, admittingly at a lower level. Btw, he his from the direct damline of Treve.

regards, Bettina

Hello,
When I went through the peds of our Juvenile Starters I spot several horses with Danzig inbreeding/linebreeding.

Cherina Dynamite (Kodiac-Carefree Smile by Invincible Spirit)
3x4 Danzig

Emilia James (Poet's Voice-Dozy by Exceed and Excel)
4x5 Danzig

Folklore (Lethal Force-Focal by Pivotal)
4x5 Danzig

Shilo (Most Improved-Sacre Fleur- by Acclamation)
Sire 4x4 Danzig

regards, Bettina

Hello,
in the "Winterfavorit" Race (Group 3) for Juveniles (unday, 10/15/17), Cologne, will start
Zargun (Rock of Gibraltar-Zenaat by Galileo), he is bred 3x4 Danzig.

regards, Bettina

Hello,
Cracksman (by Frankel) is bred 4x4 Danzig.

regards, Bettina

Hello,
when I checked the ped of Diplomat (Teofilo - Desidera by Shaadi), a seven year ol Group winner and placed in Group races. I saw he is bred 3x4 Danzig.

He ran recently a 3rd place in the "Irish Thoroughbred Marketing Cup" (LG2 ) at Qatar.

regards, Bettina