Byerley Turk sire line

[Khaled]

I am interested in knowing any extant BT sire line. I know of Indian Ridge descending from Tourbillon and Old Sorrel in the King Ranch QH. Is there any more?

If anyone knows of any current sires carring the BT sireline, please let me know. Thanks.

P.

[Khaled]

I must have hit a wrong key because I was still writing when the post was submitted.

Also can anyone give me some no Man O'War sirelines that trace to the Godolphin Arabian?

[kimberley mine]

There are a few kicking about down under, mostly from the My Babu strain of Tourbillon.

Rubiton (AUS) (Century-Ruby, by Seventh Hussar), sire of Cox Plate winner Fields of Omagh

Centro (AUS) (Century-Ease and Comfort, by Vain)

Adam (AUS) (Rubiton-Hi de Ho, by Long Row)

Kinjite (NZ) (Centaine-Pilmuir, by Super Gray)

[kimberley mine]

Some links you may or may not have seen:

http://groups.msn.com/AmbiorixTourbilli ... edBreeders

http://www.algonet.se/~lages/aiscan.htm

So far as I know, there are no BT-line horses standing anywhere in South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Mauritius.

[llbean]

There is a beachhead of Indian Ridge in Canada: http://home.cogeco.ca/~kkocot/hillsidet ... ljousting/

The GIW and GI Producer Fran's Valentine went back to Australian's half-brother Solon through Hurry On in the male line if I remember right but if it survived anywhere after her sire Saros died I have a feeling it would be Brazil.

-llbean

[siegy]

Some links you may or may not have seen:

http://groups.msn.com/AmbiorixTourbilli ... edBreeders

http://www.algonet.se/~lages/aiscan.htm

So far as I know, there are no BT-line horses standing anywhere in South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Mauritius.

hi kimberley mine,

nice thread and sharing of south american breeding interesting!
best siegy,
florida derby i, like wallstreet scandal,
good luck,

[Pan Zareta]

I am interested in knowing any extant BT sire line. I know of Indian Ridge descending from Tourbillon and Old Sorrel in the King Ranch QH. Is there any more?

If anyone knows of any current sires carring the BT sireline, please let me know. Thanks.

P.

In North America:

Eastern Memories, 1990 Don't Forget Me (Ahonoora) - East River (Arctic Tern) standing in TX

Gold Saga, 1988 Sagace - Pass of Gold (Pass the Glass) WA

Legal Jousting, 1997, Indian Ridge (Ahonoora) - In Anticipation (Sadler's Wells) ONT

My Memoirs, 1989 Don't Forget Me - Julip (Track Spare) CO

[jellac]

Pan Zareta - Also in North America and the only AMBIORIX still at stud that I can find - anywhere:

1) FRENCH SEVENTYFIVE, in Sanger, Oklahoma for $1250 stud fee - with one BT performer, several modest winners from VERY limited foals.

Also in S. America - there is a new G-1 SW of the Byerly Turk line descending from the Hugh Lupus/Hethersett branch - (From another site, already listed in a post in this thread)

From: Jellac10635 (Original Message) Sent: 1/8/2005 5:50 PM
HEARTY a direct descendant of the Hethersett/Hugh Lupus branch of Tourbillion's family (via the lightly bred Harken) is alive and thriving in Uruguay: one of sons from his early crops, AD BETTER, is a GSW current runner - he most recently competed in the G-1 Ramirez this past Thursday - (The "Ramirez" is a resurrection of Uruguay's long time top race and best regarded track through the involvment of Magna Corp/Frank Stronach's interests). There was an article in this past week's Bloodhorse.
As soon as I can get the results I'll post here but for me the big news is that this sireline is still alive and viable!!

[jellac]

BTW - Can anyone inform me if Dr. Devious has been moved to Italy or still stands in Ireland? Someone told me that all his recent progeny are of Italian Registry?

[Khaled]

Thanks for the help. I was pleased that there are more BT sires alive than I previously thought. However, sadly the line is still too rare. Only a few top stallions remain and seems that Indian Ridge is the best chance that the line will continue in the next 25-50 years. Maybe som eof the South American lines will expand in influence? Wouldn't it be nice if the line was somehow rejuvenated and successful once more?

Also if the great Matchem line (non Man O'War) that boasted the great Precipitation could resurge, too. Back the last of the 19th century and into the 20th century that line seemed to being taking over. Now it is almost extinct. Interesting how these things work out.

[Pan Zareta]

BTW - Can anyone inform me if Dr. Devious has been moved to Italy or still stands in Ireland? Someone told me that all his recent progeny are of Italian Registry?

I think Dr. D. went from Coolmore to Allevamenti della Berardenga prior to the '03 season.

[jellac]

Khaled -

AS you may have guessed by now I am something of fan of the Byerly Turk sireline and I agree with your concern that there are just too few stallions - or at least stallions of this breeding of the quality to attract large numbers of mares - representing this line to assure it's continuance....even though I am encouraged by the number that do still exist and that some 'new representatives' are emerging in almost every major continent in which thoroughbred racing and breeding takes place.

Perhaps though (and I am playing the devils advocate role here in suggesting this); given the latest 'genetic' information that points to there being very little genetic diversity of the 'Y' chromosome between sires of different breeds let alone of the same breed - this lack of sireline diversity is not as important as it has been construed to be. I have also read somewhere on the web - couldn't find it today - where despite the relative paltry numbers of Byerly Turk sireline stallions that exist worldwide that the actual percentage of Byerly Turk heritage in thoroughbreds' pedigrees is quite a healthy percentage, although not as high as that of the Eclipse line. [I.E. the article stated something to the effect that although only 6% (or so) of all thoroughbreds born are of Byerly Turk sireline breeding the Byerly Turk descendants still account for something like 38-43% of the blood in most thoroughbreds today. ] I am supposing that this is due to the popularity of this line in the early history of the hybrid thoroughbred, the practice of inbreeding for superior qualities and the fact that this hybrid "breed" has a 'closed' stud book as to both stallions and mares. The result is that even if you lose all 'Byerly Turk' sires, the so-called Phalaris line sires will still be contributing a measure of Byerly Turk blood/genes to their offspring by virtue of all the other horses, including both sons and daughters of the Byerly Turk sireline, that are in their pedigrees. Even today I see numerous stallions and mares in sale adverts and at auctions touted as being the "Ideal outcross" for your Storm Cat, Mr. P, Northern Dancer and/or Raise A Native bred horses. It seems that there will always be some breeders seeking to breed away from a given line even as others are seeking to concentrate it via inbreeding and close up linebreeding to the same or closely related individuals.

Would love to hear the input of others on this site that have more in-depth knowlege of equine genetics, etc.

[jellac]

Here's another new for 2005 stallion of the Indian Ridge branch of the Byerly Turk's sireline options - I copied this from the Pedigree Notes section on Indian Haven at the Irish Nation Stud website. THe long listing of Indian Ridge's GSWs and their 1st - 3rd dams appears on the website as a table - I don't know how to preserve that format here, so scan on down for the rest of the discussion of Indian Ridge compatible mates and their bloodlines.

Indian Haven NEW FOR 2005
chesnut 2000 by Indian Ridge - Madame Dubois by Legend Of France
Fee 2005 - €6,000 October 1st

Pedigree Notes by Michael Youngs, Bloodstock Consultant

The tall, good-bodied Indian Haven made a very good impression when winning first time out as a two-year-old. He was even more impressive returning to action at three when he according to Timeform he "showed a tremendous turn of foot" to win the Free Handicap. Supplemented into the Irish 2000 Guineas Gr.1, he scored in a manner that had Timeform's annual review stating it to be "on par with that [performance] put up by Refuse To Bend at Newmarket ". There is much to recommend Indian Haven on pedigree too. By one of the most versatile stallions of recent times, Indian Haven is out of the very smart racemare Madame Dubois, who was described as having "superb temperament" and an outstanding Timeform rating of 121 at the end of her three-year-old career. Second dam Shadywood was a Group placed daughter of Oaks fourth Milly Moss. Indian Haven is also a half-brother to Group One winner Count Dubois and the stakes placed Place de l'Opera, who is the dam of High Pitched Gr.3.

Indian Ridge GW

Bdm-sire
Sire line
2nd dam sire
Sire line
3 rd dam sire

Compton Place
Gr1
Nebbiolo
Red God
Wolver Hollow
Grey Sovereign
Crepello

Definite Article
Gr1
Moorestyle
Tudor Minstrel
Lorenzaccio
Klairon
Princely Gift

Domedrive
Gr1
Baillamont
Blushing Groom
Northern Dancer
Northern Dancer
Buckpasser

Indian Haven
Gr1
Legend OfFrance
Northern Dancer
Habitat
Sir Gaylord
Crepello

Namid
Gr1
Tate Gallery
Northern Dancer
Welsh Saint
Aureole
Prince Regent

Ridgewood Pearl
Gr1
Tap On Wood
Pall Mall
Joshua
Owen Tudor
King's Bench

Cassandra Go
Gr2
Secreto
Northern Dancer
Mr Prospector
Raise A Native
Dr Fager

Handsome Ridge
Gr2
Electric
Blakeney
Amber Rama
Nasrullah Right Royal

Indian Creek
Gr2
Bering
Native Dancer
Riverman
Never Bend Blakeney

Indian Rocket
Gr2
Mummy's Pet
Tudor Minstrel
Taj Dewan
Prince Bio
Matador

Monturani
Gr2
Unfuwain
Northern Dancer
High Top
Derring Do
Petingo

Munir
Gr2
Blushing Groom
Nasrullah
Nodouble
Star Kingdom
To Market

Nayyir
Gr2
Silver Hawk
Hail To Reason
Storm Bird
Northern Dancer
Arts And Letters

Nicobar
Gr2
Belmez
Northern Dancer
Blakeney
Blakeney
Worden

Snow Ridge
Gr2
Ela-Mana-Mou
Petition
Sir Ivor
Sir Gaylord
Sea Bird

Bardonecchia
Gr3
Caerleon
Nijinsky
Caro
Grey Sovereign
Carvin

Blomberg
Gr3
Shelter Hal
Intentionally
Noble Decree
Aureole
To Market

Campsie Fells
Gr3
Lomond
Northern Dancer
Mill Reef
Never Bend
Parthia

Dazzling Heights
Gr3
Cure The Blues
Hail To Reason
Golden Fleece
Nijinsky
Native Dancer

Fumo Di Londre
Gr3
Relko
Tanerko
Aureole
Aureole
Persian Gulf

High Pitched
Gr3
Sadler's Wells
Northern Dancer
LegendOfFrance
Northern Dancer
Habitat

Indian Mary
Gr3
Home Guard
Forli
New Model
Pall Mall
Worden

Island Magic
Gr3
Our Native
Raise A Native
Morston
Ribot
Red God

Ridgewood Ben
Gr3
Tap On Wood
Pall Mall
Joshua
Owen Tudor
King's Bench

Sights on Gold
Gr3
Alleged
Ribot
The Minstrel
Northern Dancer
Nashua

St Clair Ridge
Gr3
Sallust
Pall Mall
Hook Money
Bernborough
Matador

Tahreeb
Gr3
Be My Native
Raise A Native
Thatching
Owen Tudor
Be Friendly

Tumbleweed Ridge
Gr3
Ballad Rock
Bold Ruler
Windjammer
Windy City
Hill Gail


The compatible bloodlines for Indian Ridge are covered under that stallion. But it is interesting to analyse that stallion's successful sons at stud. Like his sire, Definite Article has sired a classic winner from a mare from the SALLUST sire-line. His multiple Irish St Leger-winning Vinnie Roe is from a mare by Sallust's son Tap On Wood . Vinnie Roe also has bloodlines of Petingo and Grey Sovereign . His Grade Two winning and Grade One placed Grammarian is from a SHARPEN UP line mare whilst Hong Kong Group Two-winning Supreme Rabbit is from a mare in-bred to NEVER BEND .

Indian Ridge's Group One winning sprinter Compton Place has two Group winners from NIGHT SHIFT mares. He also has two stakes winners with Derring-Do influences, through Dominion and High Top respectively, plus two with the speedy Sing Sing influence. The latter is the TUDOR MINSTREL -line that has been so effective for Indian Ridge - producing Definite Article and Indian Rocket for example. Compton Place also has a stakes winner from a Sallust mare. First season sire Namid had the Royal Ascot-winning two-year-old Blue Dakota who is yet another Indian Ridge-line Group winner out of a TAP ON WOOD mare.

Except for the Discipliner in-breeding in Indian Ridge, Indian Haven is a complete outcross for five generations. He is also a physical type that should lend itself to both speed and to staying mares, as it did for his sire and grandsire Ahonoora. Indian Haven's own pedigree is a perfect example of the combination of speed and classic stamina in equal measures.

GO here for a nice photo of this good looking boy -
http://www.irish-national-stud.ie/india ... digree.htm

[Pan Zareta]

From a purely sentimental standpoint I'd really hate to see further diminishment of the Byerley Turk in the tail male 'slot'. But I don't believe that would be a significant loss genetically if all non-recombinant equine yDNA is indeed identical, as is suggested by the 'Limited number of patrilines' study.

What made the Byerley unique was his autosomal DNA, and that is so deeply imbedded in the breed there's no way it could be lost. Pull up a line-breeding report on the ubiquitous Phalaris & what do you see at the top? Very potent sources of the Byerley through Herod et al. Now pull up a line-breeding report on all the North American Byerley-line sires mentioned in this thread. Note that Phalaris is a/the significant reinforcement of Herod blood in all, as is the case w/ many (most?) contemporary sires.

The old American lines are another powerful source of the Byerley - Domino, for instance, who's 3x4x4 to Lexington who's 3x4 to Sir Archy who's 3x4 to Herod, etc. (I love to see a pedigree w/ some line-breeding to Ultimus, who's 2x2 to Domino). As active modern sires go, Holy Bull is the best source of this blood that I know of off-hand. He's 5x5 to Questionnaire who's 5x5x6x4 to Domino's sire Himyar who's just loaded w/ Herod.

fwiw,
PZ

[jellac]

Kaled - A post by Stedfast Farm on the "Stallions" forum just made me aware of a couple of Byerly Turk sires that I wasn't informed of before: in N. America - Los Lunas, NM to be exact - a stallion by the name of L'Africaine Bleu was standing in 2003 and was bred to 14 Tb mares per the JCA report of mares bred. There is no report for him in 2004 which may mean he is no longer active or with us????? Here's what this database has to say about him:

L'AFRICAIN BLEU (FR) b. H, 1993
St. Cyrien (LUTHIER) o/o theSagace (LUTHIER) mare: L'Afrique Bleu Azure
DP = 1-4-15-0-2 (22) DI = 1.32 CD = 0.09 -
41 Starts, 6 Wins, 8 Places, 0 Shows
Career Earnings: $157,477 in N.A. & Fr.
Winnings: 41 Starts: 6 - 8 - 0, $157,477 in N.A. & Fr. - Pr De L'avre, Gp De Lyon; 2nd Pr De Reux
Standing for $1,000 @ Los Lunas, NM. - Dam is full to BC Classic winner, ARCANGUES.

In checking out this stallion's pedigree I am quite taken by the intense inbreeding to Byerly Turk sireline representatives top and bottom close up in his pedigree. Here's the inbreeding report for him thru "KSAR".....
Name....Inbreeding
LUTHIER 2S x 3D
KLAIRON 3S x 4D x 5d
RIVERMAN 3s x 4D
BLANDFORD 6s x 6S x 8S x 8S x 8S x 8s x 7d x 7D x 8D x 9D x 8d x 6d x 8d 13 7
SWYNFORD 6s x 7S x 7S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 7d x 8D x 8D x 9D x 9d x 8d x 9D x 7D x 9D
DJEBEL 5S x 7S x 6D x 8D x 7D
CORONACH 5S x 6D x 7D x 7d
BRANTOME 5s x 7S x 6d x 7D
SWEET LAVENDER 5s x 6d x 7d x 9d
NASRULLAH 5S x 7s x 6D
NEARCO 6S x 8S x 6s x 8D x 7D
RIALTO 7s x 5D
RABELAIS 9S x 8s x 9S x 8S x 9s x 9S x 9d x 9D x 6D x 8D
PHAROS 7S x 9S x 7S x 7d x 9D x 8D x 9d x 8d
TEDDY 8s x 9S x 9s x 8S x 8S x 8S x 9d x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 9D GAY CRUSADER 7s x 7s x 9s x 9s x 9s x 8d x 8d x 9d x 9d
ALCANTARA2 6S x 8s x 7D x 9d x 8D
TETRATEMA 6s x 9S x 7d x 8d x 8D
CANTERBURY PILGRIM 9S x 7S x 8S x 8S x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 8D
NOGARA 7S x 9S x 7S x 7D x 9D x 8D
PHALARIS 7S x 8S x 8S x 8D x 9d x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9D
VIEUX MANOIR 6S x 6D
MARCHETTA 6s x 7d x 9d x 8d
KSAR 7S x 9S x 8D x 9D x 7d x 8d

Checking into his sire's progeny I located at least two additional sons of St. Cyrien that have gone to stud and may still be standing:

DIPLOME (FR) and EPERVIER BLEU(FR), the latter seemingly has sired some decent hurdlers.