Byerley Turk sire line

[Pan Zareta]

From the current TTimes Racing Almanac (chart p. 637):

17.2% Herod(1758)
16.2% Eclipse(1764)
12.8% Highflyer(1774)
12.7% Godolphin Arabian(1724)
11.4% Partner(1718)
9.4% Regulus(1739)
8.7% St. Simon(1881)
8.4% Curwen Bay Barb mare(1710)
7.4% Birdcatcher(1833)
7.0% Pocahontas(1837)
6.3% Matchem(1748)
5.7% Flying Childers(1715)
5.3% Darley Arabian (ca. 1700)
4.9% *Teddy(1913)
4.6% Byerley Turk (ca. 1680)
4.4% Curwen Bay Barb (ca. 1695)
4.2% Hyperion (1930)
4.2% *Nasrullah (1940)
4.0% Bald Galloway (ca. 1700)

[llbean]

What made the Byerley unique was his autosomal DNA, and that is so deeply imbedded in the breed there's no way it could be lost.

You really think genes are stable, now don't you? When the Autosomal Chromosomes recombine you'll often get what is essentially a new one in many ways.

I agree with you on the Byerly Turk being an essential building block of the breed whose influence is still probably being felt in subtle and mysterious ways though. I'm just a little surprised that the Genetics Gal is saying it.

Anyway, Y Chromosome diversity or not, the Tourbillon Male Line Horses are now highly divergent relative to the rest of the breed and their preservation is of real importance to the health and long term survivial of the Thoroughbred.

Indian Ridge is the best hope.

BTW, if the Male Line does not matter, how do you explain that almost all the Kentucky Derby Winners have Raise A Native on the sireline and almost none have Raise A Native on the damsire line? And don't give me that X Factor Theory stuff cause the damsire line is not a passing position for that Chromosome.

-llbean

[Khaled]

From the current TTimes Racing Almanac (chart p. 637):

17.2% Herod(1758)
16.2% Eclipse(1764)
12.8% Highflyer(1774)
12.7% Godolphin Arabian(1724)
11.4% Partner(1718)
9.4% Regulus(1739)
8.7% St. Simon(1881)
8.4% Curwen Bay Barb mare(1710)
7.4% Birdcatcher(1833)
7.0% Pocahontas(1837)
6.3% Matchem(1748)
5.7% Flying Childers(1715)
5.3% Darley Arabian (ca. 1700)
4.9% *Teddy(1913)
4.6% Byerley Turk (ca. 1680)
4.4% Curwen Bay Barb (ca. 1695)
4.2% Hyperion (1930)
4.2% *Nasrullah (1940)
4.0% Bald Galloway (ca. 1700)

How was this list calculated? Are these % based on mean genetic contribution of each horse.

If so, this is really interesting. Darley Arabian probably accounts for the sire line of 95% of all TBs, but is actual genetic contribution is only 5.3%. This show how powerful his y chromosome is. It has lasted this long and yet the contribution by DA cannot be much more than his sireline at 5.3%.

I agree that if the BT sireline becomes extinct that all is not lost in that his contribution will always be important. However, there are sex-linked genes (on the x or y chromosome) that are impotant. If the sireline is lost then these genes are also lost because they are passed on down y the sireline only.

I guess we can only hope that Indian Ridge does not let us down. Or maybe another BT stallion will have a phenom son break out on the track then at stud. Seattle Slew did not have a particularly good sire, but he turned out to be a very good sire.

thanks for all the contributions.

[Mahubah]

Seattle Slew did not have a particularly good sire, but he turned out to be a very good sire.

Actually, Seattle Slew had a very good sire who unfortunately died young. Eleven stakes winners (including not one but two champions -- the other was French champion juvenile Super Concorde) from only sixty-four foals is one hot start at stud. Alas, Bold Reasoning died after siring only three crops, so he never got the chance to see the improved class of mares that he surely would have attracted following Seattle Slew.

[Pan Zareta]

You really think genes are stable, now don't you? When the Autosomal Chromosomes recombine you'll often get what is essentially a new one in many ways.

The autosomes are not at all stable, since they're recombined during meiosis I.

Genes, on the other hand, are stable, since recombination breaks *normally* do not happen at mid-gene. Therefore alleles that may have been unique to the Byerley (or the Godolphin or the Darley, or the Curwen Bay Barb, etc., etc., etc.) can be preserved in the population.

Anyway, Y Chromosome diversity or not, the Tourbillon Male Line Horses are now highly divergent relative to the rest of the breed and their preservation is of real importance to the health and long term survivial of the Thoroughbred.

Indian Ridge is the best hope.

I couldn't agree w/ you more.

BTW, if the Male Line does not matter, how do you explain that almost all the Kentucky Derby Winners have Raise A Native on the sireline and almost none have Raise A Native on the damsire line? And don't give me that X Factor Theory stuff cause the damsire line is not a passing position for that Chromosome.

I explain it with two words - Mr. Prospector. Take his sire line descendants out of the Derby equation and Raise A Native's sire line is on a more equal footing w/ the rest of the sire lines represented.

Mr. Prospector is a 'sire of sires' (or, in case you don't like that term - he's had way more than his breed avg. share of sons, g-sons, etc. go to stud, cover decent mares & turn out blacktype). It's hard to get away from the idea that something on the Y is going on there, but that fact in turn is difficult to reconcile with the fact that, historically, dominant sire lines tend to ascend/peak/decline more or less in bell curve form. This is pure speculation, but might this point not so much to a de novo SNP or indel on the Y, but to an error of repeats on the Y which has a positive phenotypic effect, but that is gradually 'corrected' in subsequent generations???

PZ

[Pan Zareta]

How was this list calculated? Are these % based on mean genetic contribution of each horse.

I don't know. The chart is included in a section (of the 2005 TTimes Racing Almanac) written by John P. Sparkman entitled 'The Evolution of the Breed'. There is a disclaimer underneath the chart stating "[F]igures based on an unpublished statistical study. Percentages of horses born since about 1850 may change slightly."

I agree that if the BT sireline becomes extinct that all is not lost in that his contribution will always be important. However, there are sex-linked genes (on the x or y chromosome) that are impotant. If the sireline is lost then these genes are also lost because they are passed on down y the sireline only.

You might like to have a look at the 'Interesting New Genetic Info' thread if you haven't already.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3588
PM me if you'd like pdf copies of the relevant articles.

PZ

[ZiaLand]

Forgive me if this was already mentioned in the thread and I missed it, but I read somewhere that the Byerly Turk is believed to have been an Akhal Teke, rather than of Arabian blood as were the other two founding sires.

I also am a huge Tourbillon fan, and have started doing a study of modern sires and SWs that trace back through both the sire and dam to Tourbillon (there are a considerable number). I have often wondered if the Akhal Teke blood gave this line some unique DNA, that seems to somehow be amplified when recombined, even after many generations to often result in talented and sound competitors. Any opinions?

Laurie

[Ruffian]

I am a huge fan of BT he was a Turkmenistan (???spelling???) horse which is the founder of the Akhal Teke breed but is now extinct thus the Akhal Teke is the closest relative, I own one mare from the line as far as I am aware and she is by Dr Devious,
As a side note- has anyone seen that france is opening up their stud book for horses upto 87.5% Tb ??? They can race over the jumps in france but I believe will be registered Thoroughbreds- this is to encourage more eventers I believe to breed and own 'Thoroughbreds' May be wrong- I read it in Horse & Hound.

[ZiaLand]

Interesting info on the Turkmenistan, Ruffian. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks!

OK, so if you breed a French TB that's 87.5% TB to an American TB, is it registerable as a TB by the Jockey Club?

Laurie

[Ruffian]

Thats where they lost me

And if SO why don't we all ship our favorite 'mongrel' horses to france breed them to pure TB comes out 87.5% register it TB ship it to US and win stakes???

I really don't see how they are regulating it...

[Beard of Stars]

Anyone else think that Linngari has a legit shot to continue this line? I like the fact that he raced from 6 furlongs to a mile and a quarter. Plus he raced in so many grade I's and won a few too. I'd love to see one of his two year olds sneak up and win something big and put the Ahonoora line on the map again on the tail male side of things.

[louis finochio]

Ahonoora is the BMS of champion & HOY in 02, Azeri.
Ahonoora is the BMS of Cape Cross, CC is the sire of Sea The Stars.

[Beard of Stars]

Ahonoora is the BMS of champion & HOY in 02, Azeri.
Ahonoora is the BMS of Cape Cross, CC is the sire of Sea The Stars.

Yes, Ahonoora has figured prominently in the pedigrees of some elite runners. New Approach and Leroidesanimaux also spring to mind. His son Indian Ridge has had more than 40 group winners, 10 of them group one winners.

Indian Ridge sons that have gone to stud have, for the most part, had little success. Linngari, on the other hand, is at the beginning of his stud career. His first crop of 2-year-olds are hitting the track this year. Considering his performance on the track I feel that he, of all of Indian Ridge's sons, has a decent chance to carry on the line although I don't discount Sleeping Indian.

Here is a link to a video of Linngari. To me he looks like a fairly classy individual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opctt-GeMBg

[ElPrado]

Thank you Louis, for that earth shattering news.

[DDT]

Beard of Stars

Any pedigree expert that thinks that genes originating from the Byerley Turk other than those carried on the Y chromosome have some how managed to survive 25 bouts of recombination and the fact that only 50% of a sire's genetic makeup is forwarded onward with each mating is absurd to say the least.

DDT