Thoughts on this mare's broodmare potential?

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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Coquinerie
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Thoughts on this mare's broodmare potential?

Postby Coquinerie » Sun May 01, 2005 8:52 am

What are your thoughts on Arikara, 00 Mutakddim-Audra, Alleged.

Wonderful pedigree, bad race record but lots of amazing broodmare blood runs through her. Thoughts?

kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Mon May 02, 2005 12:22 pm

I would check very, very carefully for soundness of both wind and limb in this filly. Her family is strong enough, but in a quick flip through her immediate family up to Tamerette, there are a good many unraced horses of both genders.

If you do buy and breed her, I would look for a Nureyev-line stallion.

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Mahubah
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Postby Mahubah » Mon May 02, 2005 4:31 pm

I second Kimberley Mine's comments. Diktat (by Warning) also yields a very interesting hypo with this mare, giving sex-balanced crosses to Tamerett, Raise a Native, Northern Dancer, and Hail to Reason.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis

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Postby llbean » Mon May 02, 2005 4:51 pm

I can't say I see the logic of a Nureyev line stallion with this mare as Seeking The Gold and Nureyev haven't combined in any GSWs I'm aware of...

-llbean

Inthe951
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Postby Inthe951 » Sun May 15, 2005 9:34 pm

I have dome some research on the Seeking the Gold line. I would think a nice Deputy Minister X Buckpasser stallion would be nice
-Meg

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Pete
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Postby Pete » Mon May 30, 2005 11:27 am

Hi all,

I think the advice is a bit all over the map, like the pedigree of this mare.

Kimberly makes a solid point - check the mare out. Your foal out of Arikara will have it's first three dams unraced - hardly a formula for success on the track or at the sales. If she has physical problems you'd be better off trying another mare.

Arikara has deep family. The matings in between in her first two generations have been uninspired and have had little success, thus her family has become disparate - you need to find the elements that will make it coalesce.

As for the comments, I think it would be wise to evaluate the pedigree as it is before making recommendations (check blood content too). I don't think that there is a single salient pattern in this pedigree to leverage.

Simply put, find what's missing and use solid breeding techniques to reinforce the mating and try to bring back some of the quality in this family.

Mutakddim gets some speed but weak knees too - not something I would have looked to breed to with the record of this family - but it is what it is.

Just some notes:
I wouldn't add ANY more Tom Fool or Buckpasser to this pedigree since it's already loaded. Very simple - it didn't work before, why add more. Deputy Minister I could live with on the top line.

I agree with Bean, Nureyev to me is just some more blood to confuse the issue, nothing positive to gain.

Mahubah I agree with your choice of sire line but I'd look to get away from linebreeding and outcross this mating as much as possible. The attempts to linebreed have diminished the quality in the family in the past, I don't want to reinforce them.

I'll list a few stallions who match Arikara well. Take a look at the hypo pedigrees and I believe you'll see what I'm saying, but I'm not necessarily recommending them.

TALK IS MONEY (don't use Mr. Prospector sire line). Illustrates a good profile for inbreeding and taking aggressive action. This guy's overpriced, but a good example.

AMERICAN STANDARD. My preference in sire line (In Reality) - but through War Relic, not War Admiral. Balances the blood, ties affinity top/bottom and American Standard freaks for Bold Ruler (Arikara's 5x6 to him). Cheap but reliable race horse - could tell you a lot about your mare without breaking the bank.

OFFICER, looks good on paper, but to me this is walking into a wall. No reason to double so close to an unproductive influence. Slew/Broadway probably the source of knees in Mutakddim.

KELLY KIP, has fertility problems, but makes a very interesting cross that I think is sexier on paper than it might prove in the flesh.

VALID WAGER is a very nice example and might be a soid choice if you can get to him (CA). He loves Bold Ruler (like American Standard) and has the qualities I'd want (on paper) as well as a very nice linebreed to the underrated mare Up The Hill through Moslem Chief and Determined Lady - through Tumbling). You're an outcross trying to leverage older inherited affinities.

Hope this helps,

Pete

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Postby yukidragon » Mon May 30, 2005 12:54 pm

I like Pete's last pick (VALID WAGER)
That a look at (GARTHORN) same female family an also the same sire line as (VALID WAGER).
That sire line has worked for your mare's female family before.
Might spark again.
Good pick Pete :D

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Postby sb » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:44 pm

Inthe951 wrote:I have dome some research on the Seeking the Gold line. I would think a nice Deputy Minister X Buckpasser stallion would be nice


INteresting that you mention Deputy Minister. The racer with the most credentials in this family is

GO FOR WAND, F 1987 by DEPUTY MINISTER 1979At 2. Won: Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies-G1; 2nd Frizette S.-G1At 3: Won Alabama S.-G1, Ashland S.-G1, Mother Goose S.-G1, Beldame S.-G1, Test S.-G1, Maskette S.-G1, Beaumont S.-G3; 2nd Kentucky Oaks-G1
13-10-2-0 ($1,373,338)

most unfortunately:
*Broke down and euthanized on the track in the 1990 Breeders' Cup Distaff. RIP, dear lady. *

Does one always have to 'go' with the givens of a pedigree? What about stearing things in the direction the breeder/owner is looking. And what is the filly's conformation? What type?

SB

Bill from WA
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Postby Bill from WA » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:41 am

If she was in Washington State, I think Tribunal would be worth a look. The duplication of the female influences of Bill And Coo through Secretariat and Alleged, and Sanctuary through the full sisters Twosy and Two Lea to Ponder and Tim Tam, adds a strong thread. This pedigree would offer Northern Dancer, m/f, 4x5, Bold Ruler 4x6, and Native Dancer, m/f, 6x6. Not a complete outcross, but not tight up close either. The Tribunal's look physically outstanding at this early stage of his stud career. Might look for a stallion with simlar breeding.

The lack of production in the mare's first three dams would be a concern for me.

Bill
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Inthe951
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Postby Inthe951 » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:38 pm

Does one always have to 'go' with the givens of a pedigree? What about stearing things in the direction the breeder/owner is looking. And what is the filly's conformation? What type?


I was just mentioning that Deputy Minister blood might add well. I am not an expert and not able to comment on alot but a seeking the gold mare might like a DM son? I didnt get any of the info about their direction, mare conformation and type.
-Meg