Soundness

[Elles]

Were/are there soundness problems with the following horses themselves or their offspring?
St. Simon, Hyperion, Gainsborough, Nearco, Phalaris, Teddy, Sansonnet, Pharos, Blandford, Chaucer, Canterbury Pilgrim, Man O' War, Selene, Native Dancer, Almahmoud, War Admiral, Sister Sarah, Scapa Flow, Bayardo, Swynford, Blenheim, Tourbillon, Djebel, Dante, Spearmint, Nasrullah, Nearctic.

I have been reading the latest book from Abram Hewitt about sire lines and from what I read to me it looks like soundness problems are from all times and all kinds of sirelines/marelines.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/reviews/064-sirelines.shtml

[Elles]

By the way, something totally different. Ellen Parker is looking for stallions from sire lines that are dying out: http://www.reines-de-course.com/in_search_of.htm.
Sorry, very off topic but I just happened to notice this.

Could somebody please tell me what is considered to be an unsoundness?
What kind of unsoundnesses are there precisely?

[erins isle]

In the US 'bleeders' are an example for unsoundness.

[geowarrior]

I don't know so much about Sirelines but as far as the stallions themselves go, I'm pretty sure Man 'O War and his son War Admiral both retired sound. Native Dancer won 20 of 21 starts in his relatively short career, and there are some opinions that his only loss (in the Kentucky Derby) was because he was pinfired for osselets some time before the race, and people often seem to consider him a source of unsoundness, with some of the text I've seen referring to his ankle problems. Native Dancer's son, Raise A Native, raced only a few times before bowing tendons. Many people consider Raise a Native to be a source of unspecified leg unsoundness if heavily inbred to. The pedigree query board mentions that Spearmint is considered a source of unsoundness. The problem to me seems to be that 'unsoundness' is a very general term. I saw a discussion of osselets on this board, for example, in which a knowledgeable poster pointed out that if a young horse (particularly one that is going to be large) is growing fast, this injury tends to be common. So is it an hereditary unsoundness or is it an issue which good training can mitigate? The same goes for bowed tendons. I've seen opinions ranging from the statement that all bowed tendons can be avoided by vigilant training, to the idea that too many crosses of Phalaris can lead to 'weak' tendons.

So as far as leg unsoundnesses go, it seems to be very difficult to assess the issue. However, there are modern sires who are considered to be at a high risk of passing on leg unsoundness, and I'm thinking specifically here of In Excess and his son Indian Charlie who have that reputation. Things like bleeding, breathing problems etc. might be easier to ascribe to heredity, because they are less dependent on training methods.

[Isanti]

Summer Squall and bleeders, watch out. However, Hail to Reason is considered a great ancestor for sound horses.

[geowarrior]

What is the issue with Summer Squall? Or am I hijacking the thread?

[Elles]

I have no problem with hijacking , I am interested in everything that is being told about unsoundness.

[pokeyman]

What is the issue with Summer Squall? Or am I hijacking the thread?

He was a true bleeder.....

[geowarrior]

Thanks, Pokeyman. My next question is, are his offspring true bleeders also?

[pokeyman]

Thanks, Pokeyman. My next question is, are his offspring true bleeders also?

There is really no way to tell how consistently he passes the trait on. This is because US owners/trainers routinely give their horses Lasix whether they are true bleeders or not. So, if a Summer Squall kid didn't race on Lasix/Salix then that's a good sign. However, if they did, it doesn't necessarily mean that the horse was a true bleeder either.

Of course, if the mare was a bleeder too and bred to Summer Squall than it doesn't look good for the foal.

However, genetics is weird.......

On another note, You can also have respiratory unsoundness like roaring or anatomy that requires surgery to open airways. Then, of course, all your conformation unsoundness problems. There are also fertlity unsoundness in conformation like a tipped vulva which breeders would try to eliminate, certain cancers can run in bloodlines, biomechanical issues, etc.....

[louis finochio]

95% of the sire lines today trace to Phalaris, and we are seeing 9-13 crosses in a 5 generation pedigree, thats why the lifetime average starts per Tb has fallen from 36 in 1982 to 6 in 2007.

When you observe Tb that have those spindle legs, you can be sure their is 9-13 crosses of Phalaris in those individuals.

[Elles]

Are there more horses with spindle legs or are there more horses with bodies that are too heavy for their legs because of muscle mass? In the past horses were more of a stayer type and leaner and lighter built then the sprinters nowadays.
If I look for example at the old pictures of St. Simon he did not seem to have heavy bone in the legs. But he and all horses of his time did not have to carry Quarter Horse like bodies on those legs.
http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&q= ... gen+zoeken

[geowarrior]

Didn't I hear that Storm Cat is known to pass on respiratory unsoundness?

[louis finochio]

Those Tb of yesteryear had long cast bodys and were of long necks, legs that were long and narrow that were suited to carry their weight in proportion to their frame.

Many of the Tb today are built like a blocky QH, and are top heavy that puts to much weight on their underpining.

When a breeder makes those matings that are inbred to close, you will see the performance and soundness drop off and the heads of the colts will become small like a fillys head.

When a TB that is from a mating of inbreeding to close, they will lose their hybrid vigor and after a hard work or race they will go off their feed, as these types of Tb are telling us breeders to outcross to breed back a robust individual.

[Pedigree Ann]

95% of the sire lines today trace to Phalaris, and we are seeing 9-13 crosses in a 5 generation pedigree, thats why the lifetime average starts per Tb has fallen from 36 in 1982 to 6 in 2007.

When you observe Tb that have those spindle legs, you can be sure their is 9-13 crosses of Phalaris in those individuals.

On another board, I once did a calculation to see exactly what percentage of the ancestry of several US horses was Phalaris. The range I found was 3.5 to 5%. Then one of the Aussie posters did a similar calculation for Aussie/NZ horses and found something like 10-12% Phalaris. Aussie/NZ horses run more often than US horses in races closer together and over longer distances, drug free. If Phalaris were a problem, one would think they would be having more problems with unsoundness than we are.