Margies Mom

[Mac]

Margie's Mom needs a man. I have had this mare two months, and accidentally obtained her during the Barrett's sale in California. I'd meant to bid on her, then changed my mind and passed, but apparently my admin. assistant had misunderstood and filled out the "bid" form in the Barretts credit approval package that constituted an automatic bid by fax. Talk about a shock the next day when I found out I had accidentally bought her...

Margie's offspring have mostly not raced, but a girlfriend of mine said she'd exercised a filly out of Margie that had been an absolute "monster" who had not ended up racing due to an injury. This girlfriend has exercised for Laz Barerra, Nick Zito, Shug McGauhy, etc., and she would know a nice two-year-old...anyway, the "monster" filly was out of Town Caper, who was out of Ice Capades. Margies's brothers and sisters are all nice graded stakes types, and her half-sister produced Society Selection. I have a lot of homework to do...

thanks for any ideas and comments!

[Mac]

I realized my post needs a few details...sorry. I am breeding to race, would go up to $5k-$7k, and I would ship her out of Texas for breeding if the stallion was a good enough opportunity. For example, I would breed her to someone like Kipling if he was a good cross for her, which at this point I am not sure....

[Mac]

I realized my post needs a few details...sorry. I am breeding to race, would go up to $5k-$7k, and I would ship her out of Texas for breeding if the stallion was a good enough opportunity. For example, I would breed her to someone like Kipling if he was a good cross for her, which at this point I am not sure....

[geowarrior]

Margies Mom is a half to Sea of Secrets, so a son of Storm Cat might be a possibility. There are so many of those I wouldn't know where to start.

Also Margie's Mom's dam's two best earners (excuse the grammar) were both by Gate Dancer. I'm not aware of any Gate Dancers at stud, but he was by Sovereign Dancer of the Northern Dancer line so you might look at Northern Dancer influences also. A good son of Sovereign Dancer standing at stud for $7,500 in MD is Louis Quatorze.

The Seattle Slew breedings to Margie's Mom's dam seem to have been the least successful, and her actual sire is quite an obscure one whose best earners had as broodmare sires Ole Bob Bowers (!) and a horse called Hawaii.

A breeding with Kipling would give three by three Mr. Prospector, sex balanced through Gulch and Love From Mom. I could probably live with this but I'm not sure without checking Goldmine whether Mr. P. inbreeding through Gulch has been that successful. I'm sure you are aware also that Kipling has moved to Kentucky and his fee raised to $7500.

I'll be curious to see what others think.

[Mac]

Thank you Geo, your thinking is very close to mine regarding Storm Cat, N. Dancer, etc. My only curiosity about going to Mr. Prospector at all is that it did work for Society Selection, but the dam sires are different also. Also Funnycide's damsire was a full brother to Margie's sire. Otherwise it would seem like Storm Cat or Dixieland Band would be better...

Thank you again very much for your thoughts.

[geowarrior]

Well my understanding without looking at Society's Selection specifically is that the best conduit for Mr. Prospector inbreeding is Fappiano, and as I said, Gulch doesn't ring a bell as a particularly successful one (and don't get me wrong I absolutely love Kipling). My own personal favorite Mr. Prospector, Two Punch hasn't been a good conduit either.

It doesn't mean they all aren't good sires, they just don't seem to do as well in the cross as does Fappiano.

[geowarrior]

I did check Society Selection and her sireline was through Coronado's Quest through Forty Niner. Quite different I think although I'd have to check Goldmine to see if that one is any more successful.

I hadn't noticed that Margie's Mom's sire was a full brother to Slewacide. But full siblings rarely display similar race or sire records. Slewacide doesn't seem to have any race record to speak of but he did sire three winners of over a million so he could get the big horse. His brother (whose name I've already forgotten, can you believe it), had a better race record, but his GRASP figure (the number under his name - which is an invention of George William Smith and is related to GSV) is 26. George William Smith considers 27 to be average for a sire and so Margie's Mom's sire was a below average performer. In addition at least as far as Goldmine goes, there have been remarkably few Slew over Slew crosses to have won graded stakes (Slew's Tizzy is a recent exception) and there are apparently a few others. Remember, however, that Goldmine only deals with graded stakes winners.

However I would say that I'm beginning to think that Weekend Surprise and Lassie Dear are worth having doubled up in a pedigree almost regardless of the conduit (although I hasten to add that I haven't backed that up with any research). So you could look for something with a strain of Lassie Dear or Weekend Surprise. You do get a Weekend Surprise daughter in the tail female to Kipling, but I don't know if it's enough to offset my dislike of that particular Mr. P. Cross. Eavesdropper is out of Weekend Surprise and I thought there was some kind of deal on him at Walmac but I've forgotten what it is. His listed fee is $7500. He is by Kingmambo, and frankly if you're going to go with a Mr. P. cross he has by far the classiest pedigree of anything we've mentioned. If you go to the stallion register page for Eavesdropper in the Thoroughbred times and look at the number of good sires that female family has produced, you can't help but be impressed.

If you want to take an interesting risk, Mr Sekiguchi is by Storm Cat out of Welcome Surprise, a daughter of Weekend Surprise (Weekend Surprise being a daughter of Lassie Dear). Here you get your Storm Cat, avoid a Mr. P. cross and get the good female family. Now he cost over 8 mill and then didn't do well at the races, but if you have faith in the female family then he might be a bit like Kipling - not that great at racing but good sire potential (if Rokeby sees this I'm toast!!!!). They say $5000 is his fee (that's too much in my opinion) but they might deal for a mare that's a half to a graded stakes winner and to Sea of Secrets. You can only punch up your mare's catalog as much as possible and ask. I imagine that at the price he brought, Mr. Sekiguchi at least looks good (Kipling was a big price too, so I imagine he looks pretty flashy also).

A Lassie Dear son still at stud is Deerhound who hasn't lit fires at stud with his 12 crops, with the one exception of the million dollar mare Countess Diana. Deerhound is by Danzig which would get you your Northern Dancer. Not quite sure where he's standing - one place says Iowa another says La. Not my favorite choice.

Anyway that was just a few more useless thoughts, and no doubt people who actually know something about pedigrees are cringing at this point.

[madelyn]

For Breed To Race, Osidy in LA give you a very interesting cross for your mare, doubling My Charmer through Seattle Slew and Seattle Dancer. He is a son of Storm Cat. I bred Miss Courageous to Osidy last year in KY, working the same sort of cross.

[casallc]

I like Dynameaux for the money and he is in Texas. I've seen his foals and they are nice. Don't make two mistakes by getting a lot of money tied up in this mare. This horse won't cost much and has just as good a chance to get you a runner.

http://keytothehillsfarm.com/images/dyn ... dframe.jpg

[Mac]

Thanks Geowarrior, Madelyn, and Casallc. Geowarrior, I love Kipling also but I agree with you that the cross doesn't seem that strong for this mare, for the very reasons you have very kindly explored.


Madylyn and Casallc, I will research your options most thoroughly. Thanks very much for those ideas (Osidy and Dynameaux). Madyln, did your mare have her foal out of Osidy in 2007, and how did it look?

[tinners way]

I would take a hard look at Uncle Abbie. Pulls Lassie Dear into the pedigree, and is bred on the same cross as Wrenice. Oppenheimer loves this nick of Kingmambo over Slew

[madelyn]

I probably said "last year" as in the last breeding year which is actually '07. The Osidy foal is due in '08.

Osidy's fee fell to, I believe, $2500 in LA, so if it is not too FAR to go, it is a very interesting mating for Margie's Mom.

[winds]

I was surprised to read that Geowarrior didn't know who Hawaii was. He was a very good South African race horse who was imported to the US to stand at stud. He was known as a good turf sire. Some of the horses he sired are: Henbit, Hawaiian Sound, Humza Dancer, Island Edition, Island Kiss, Island Kitty ( Dam of Hennessy ), Kamahameha etc.

He was a very useful stallion.

winds

[geowarrior]

Winds, the reason I didn't know about Hawaii would be that I only came to the States in 2001 and only really started looking at pedigrees a year and a half ago and so there are horrific gaps in my knowledge. From 1981 till 2001 I lived in Canada and didn't follow racing at all. When I was a child in Scotland I did nothing but follow racing but I preferred steeplechasing and followed form since I didn't have access to much pedigree information. Thanks for filling me in on Hawaii. Always willing to learn more and I hope to own up to my mistakes -- see below.

Mac. When I was writing late last night I had Weekend Surprise on the brain because I was thinking A.P. Indy, and of course your Slew influence is not A.P. Indy who is out of Weekend Surprise. So I was in error when I mentioned doubling up to that female family. Everything else I said I believe though, I still think that particular female family in the tail female line is an indication of a statistically higher probability of getting a good sire and so I wouldn't change my recommendations - although it's very interesting to see the recommendations of others also. Deerhound is in La by the way, I just saw an ad for him in the print version of the Bloodhorse.

[geowarrior]

Btw Casallc. I always hoped Dynameaux would be successful. I liked his looks, and his race record and of course I would love it if Dynaformer could sire some good sires before he passes on.

Do you know if Dynameaux has sired any runners yet?