Pin Oak Lane in PA

[ruaff]

This my learning experience that I thought I'd share.

I showed up this morning to see my mare at Pin Oak Lane. I was told that I should call first. I personally think that is just wrong. I showed up at 10:45 am and all they had to do was point me to the field where my mare is. I realize they have things going on but I'm not that big of a burden. The farm owner then called me an hour later and told me he was uncomfortable with the situation and wanted the mare moved - but I could bring her back to be bred.
A- I'm not comfortable with what's going on if I can't show up at 10:45 on a Saturday.
B- Yeah I'll be rushing to you to have her bred and give you ANY business in the future.

I realize the place is well respected and may just not be for the smaller breeder. She'll be coming home - and going somewhe ELSE to foal.

[Toccet02]

did they mention to you earlier that you should call first?
If not, I agree.
You're hiring them. There shouldn't be any reason why you can't take a look at her. Sounds like there's something to hide. DID you see her?

[jellac]

I do hear you're point but have two things to say.

First - Was this your first visit to the farm to see your mare? Perhaps the farm management want to be sure you are introduced to the staff, the layout, rules (yes - they are entitled to have rules that allow them to best handle/protect everyone's horses' and their clients' wellbeing.). I would always call ahead if it was my first time to visit a farm, wanting to introduce myself to the manager/staff when it's conveninet to both of us. I would not want to arrive unannounced, taking staff time away from important tasks necessary to get a farm ready for the breeding season, be a bother/distracton, etc. After that introduction and a chance for the farm manangement to get to know you/your habits, intent and level of horse handling knowlege, etc. I think the degree to which you're allowed freely range about the farm is kind of between you and the farm manager . Along these lines I might ask whether your mare is/was a regular year round boarder at this farm or there to be bred after being under lights, etc. or there to foal out and then be bred? I can understand how a farm might give one sort of client more leeway than another.

Secondly - you might take a minute to consider this from the other side of the fence - that of the manager or owner of an active "public" breeding farm with (I'm presuming) a fair number of 'resident' or boarded mares, plus farm mares plus the mares that ship in to foal before being bred and shipped out once confirmed 'in foal'. And then there's the stallions, teasers included, etc. If they allow anyone who enters the gates to have the run of the farm's facilities, go out to the mare pastures, etc. who's to say what might happen. I'll give you a personal example from our first born foal visits at the breeding farm where we boarded. While I was quite used to the curious forward and somewhat "lippy" investigative nature of young foals, especially colts my boyfriend/partner was not. I'd encouraged him to go into the pasture with me to see mare and foal and it quickly developed that he was not at all comfortable gently avoiding the young colt's efforts to 'taste' him - nor was he willing to properly discipline him for this behavior. The potential problem arose as he went to leave the pasture, assuming that the colt would stay with his momma. Well, that bold little colt chose instead to follow him towards the fence, quickening his pace as boyfriend quickened his until the colt - having the greatest fun - was furiously chasing very apprehensive 6'2" boyfriend out of the pasture at a gallop! Boyfriend had no idea that young horses love to give chase, and often take the opportunity to "climb" or mount a playmate, or kick out in passing - all done in the rough form of play young foals seem to enjoy. Colt thought this was the most interesting playmate he'd had access to in a long time and forever after gave my boyfriend absolute heck. With me he was a well mannered pussycat - hand the lead to boyfriend and it was 'let the games begin!. In this case I doubt the foal would have been hurt but the boyfriend could have been - even if he just tripped on the rough ground.

A client's child gets bit or kicked through the fence by a territorially threatened stallion they regard as a 'nice horsey' while their parents are distracted looking for "their mare"....

Your mare gets injured while some other less horse savvy visitor is visiting their mare in the same pasture because they 'like to watch them while they're running' and have entered the pasture or leaned over the fence as the mares come up waving their arms wildly? Or your mare simply gets injured by another bossier/more nervous mare when they all crowd up to the fence to see what sort of 'treats' these strangers are offering them. Horses, herd mares especially get highly competitive when food is out and about and a lot of 'mare owners' haven't a clue about this aspect of equine behavior unless they come from a 'horsey' background.

Ask yourself how would you feel if you arrived and found a bunch of people in the pasture/along the fence where your mare resides and they're feeding her 'something' or they and/or their guests/kids are doing something to irritate her? You ask the farm manager: Who are those people?! (with some indignation) and are told: "Oh, I'm not sure -they're just some of the folks who wander in and out during our normal working hours."

Owning and running a public breeding farm is fraught with all kinds of premises liability issues, not to mention the responsibility to protect the value of the mares on the premises and the farm manager has the frontline obligation to protect everyone's interests as equally and vigilantly as possible.

Now having said that I do get your concern that you not have to make an appontment to "see" your horse. There's got to be a balance in there somewhere as you are I take it someone who is familiar with horses and have very right to have access to see/visit your mare, within reason.

[nythoroughbredvz]

I have been there done that, if I cant go see my own mare that I'm paying to be cared for at will, she wont be there! it takes months to get a mare back after its not taken care of.
However after my past bad experiences I assure anyone I deal with that I will be visiting my mare, I wont make an appointment! but I will call while im enroute to let them know I'm on my way.. that have to care for their horses or have someone there to do it. so they have 3 hours or so of travel time to get things in line and my cell number.
when I had my mares closer I would call and tell them I will be there at x-time and if thats not good let me know what time that day is good.
Also I ask before I take a mare anywhere do they have access to water 24/7 ? And I make sure it is agreed upon that I will show up at least once un-anounced so I ask them to tell me what time of day can someone be found and is best for that to happen if they cant agree to that then its not happening. I will bet your ass that if you pulled in and said I have mares I would like to breed to your stallion is there any chance I can see him? they will accomodate you!

[Blue feather]

This is an extremely competitive business. I believe farms must be "customer friendly". An owner can choose to pick up and leave at any time for any reason. To give owners a reason to leave is self defeating. There are many quality operations that have an open door policy. There is no need to patronize one that doesn't. Most of the farms I've visited and contacted for various reasons will bend over backwards to help. Not just to get your business , but it seems this business attracts good people who love what they do.

[ruaff]

Thanks for the great responses.

I'll clarify some.

This was my fourth visit in 2 months - WAY less than I'd like to visit. And my second unannounced visit - I was not told anything during or after my first unannounced visit.

Upon my first visit I was told "If you give us a call ahead of time we'll get her cleaned up". She's a HORSE!!! I don't need her cleaned up if she's not A) Heading to the races or B) Heading to the show ring.

I go by myself, and have, in their presence, led my mare to and fro and been with her in the paddock - I bring NOTHING to feed her or any other animal. I stay for 30 minutes tops = just so I don't distract the staff.

This just isn't the right relationship for me - It's not at an all an indictment on the farm and how they care for the animal - all I saw was VERY good, and the staff more than helpful and courteous - It can seem a little suspicios but I really don't think that's the issue at this place. For the owner to essentially kick me out (I was contemplating leaving the entire ride home - he just made my decision for me) after asking me once to call beforehand - I certainly would have called for any other visits - while I finalized other plans.

[nythoroughbredvz]

Pin Oaks Frequently asked questions:
2. What are the advantages of doing business with Pin Oak Lane Farm?
We give both the client and horse individual care and attention that is unique to the horse industry.

I geuss this one can be deleted from their site!

4. How easy is communicating with Pin Oak Lane Farm?

Very!
Reach us by phone at 717-235-4954.
Our dedicated staff answers the phone 24 hours per day from the office, home, and out on the farm.
Our fax number is 717-235-8190.
e-mail: [email protected]

Maybe they should add:
"only scheduled visits will be considered for doing buisness with us!"

[ak1]

I'd imagine the farm's liability insurance has guidelines about non employees/farm owners being on the premises. However, I can not imagine that precluding owners from visiting their horses.

Unfortunate that the situation did not work out for you. Hope it causes them to define a policy for their mare owners so something like this does not happen again.

[jellac]

Ruaff - Thanks for the clarification - it sounds to me like you've every reason to be disgruntled, premises liability concerns not withstanding. I'm with you now in taking your business elsewhere under the circumstances. While the farm manager may be thinking he/she is protecting the farm they are in fact getting in the way of a budding business relationship and the thoroughbred breeding business is one based more on relationships than any business I can think of. One last suggestion, if you care to do it, you just might contact the head person at Pin Oak in Kentucky and relate in writing just why you are taking your mare elsewhere....it's feedback they really ought to hear as they attempt to establish themselves in a new market.

[geowarrior]

I would have thought that an issue like this would be included in the original boarding contract. Then you could choose at the very beginning if that was a suitable situation for you. Since I assume that it wasn't covered, it seems to me that Pin Oak acted in very bad faith, as nothing was mentioned during the first unannounced visit and it's not as though Ruaff is there every weekend setting up a cot next to his mare to sleep in her stall.

I'm sorry it worked out that way for you Ruaff, but there are plenty of good stallions out there (I'm assuming we're talking about Pin Oak in Pennsylvania?) to breed to.

[btcountess]

Here's my two cents - When I had my yearling at a farm where she was starved and severely abused (we had been there the month before) and then my 2 yr. old that was raced lame by a hightly recommended trainer at Fair Hill - EVERYONE on this board said that you should always make surprise visits when someone else is being paid to care for (not always) your horse. I think that is very, very good advice and should apply here as well. It's your horse, your money - period!

[Hold Your Peace]

Calling a day ahead before visiting is not going to give a farm time to cover up neglect or poor care so there's no reason that you'd have to make a 'surprise' visit.

Just because you board there you still have to remember it's somebody elses property and they're running a business there.

Now if you call a day ahead and they put you off for a week without a good explanation then maybe I'd just show up to find out what the hell was going on, but I'd have to believe that most farms would tell you that it's fine for you to stop by if you called them a day ahead.

However, in this case, I find the farm managers attitude and comments very strange "I'm not comfortable with this situation?" Where the hell did that come from? A "Please call ahead in the future if you can" would seem more appropriate.

[ageecee]

I would of went back with a trailer and loaded her up that day and told them adios.

[winds]

Ok, here's my 2 cents. When I worked on the racetrack most of our owners would call to let us know when they were coming. We always had an open door policy, they were their horses after all, but I did appreciate them respecting us by calling ahead. We would call and find out when they were going to be there and schedule their horses to train while they were there. We did have one owner who even though he had to travel 1/2 way across the country to see his horses NEVER called and would just show up at the barn. He always came when my boss was gone on assignment for either ABC or later NBC to do the TC. He drove us crazy because he was a pain in the arse, however, I now realize he was just a very lonely person and really loved his horses.

Fast forward and I'm the owner of a yearling being prepped for the sale. I've been told to please call in advance so they can have her groom available to show her to us, and the farm isn't open on Sundays. I had no problem following that request, a good friend of mine has his mares foal there and the same request is made of him regarding his mares. He will call and tell them he'll be there in a couple of hours, and just point him in the direction of the field. Both of us have developed a good repour with the owner/manager of the farm and a mutual respect.

Personally, I think them asking you to take your mare off the property and ship in for breeding was not a good customer service point. I think they should call you and apologize for any misunderstandings.

winds

[nythoroughbredvz]

Although calling ahead is common courtesy. I visited a mare that was boarded while trying to get in foal, the first 2 times I called ahead she was brushed, had fresh water, hay in the feeder! the third time I stopped unanounced she had no water or hay,brushing didnt matter to me either way! I noticed there was no water bucket's or hay debris what so ever. walked into the barn where her stall was there was another horse in the stall. no biggie I preffer my horses be out as much as possible anyhow. the pasture she was in had no shelter... the owners were not there so I didnt stay I went to Saratoga and got a room for the night, etc.. had every intention of calling to tell them I was stopping by in the morning. I drove by there at 9am she was in the same pasture so I decided to wait till noon to go back unanounced hoping she would have had water and noticible care by then . no hay, no water and same horse was in the stall that was uncleaned, she also had no water either time! the owner came out told me he had just turned her out a few minutes ago.. I told him I was there the evening before and I would apreciate it if he would make sure she had water, I was told his help didnt show up for work and he appologises. I went back a month later and she looked like a PETA add..never again, I will stop unanounced, drive by whatever i need to do to assure my horses are cared for and I tell them that up front!