CTHS Winter Mixed Sale

Chelsea Flower · Postby **Chelsea Flower** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:21 am

I'm slightly confused about the arguing about the Canadian sale. I attended the Sept sale for the first time and I don't think you can compare it to the sales in the states. Nothing was based on reality. No offense and I'm all for breeder's incentives, but I saw a lot of pretty bad horses go for a lot more than they were worth just because they were Ontario sired. Those horses wouldn't have sold for a fraction at Keeneland or even Fasig Tipton. After watching the racing at Woodbine all summer, the horses in the restricted races would have a hard time competing for $25,000 in the states. That said I would love to have an Ontario sired foal to sell I just don't think it can be compared to any other market.

Fair Play · Postby **Fair Play** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:02 am

The incentive for having an Ontario sired foal does make them more valuable and few if any sell to outsiders. I have seen this confuse the odd American racing at Woodbine or FE who attends our sales. They think they can buy a modest horse for what it would sell for at Keeneland or OBS. Those horses need to compete in open races so need to be of higher quality. Anyone who winter races elsewhere typically can't risk blowing their conditions in American races since as you say the purses are lower, the level generally must be lower to win, and you will hurt the horse's lifetime earnings. You can see maidens or NW2L with hundreds of thousands in earnings with the huge MSW purses. You are rewarding the breeder for the incentives available.

westover · Postby **westover** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:51 am

Chelsea, you are correct in that some of the Öntario Sired Yearlings did bring substantial money. There were actually some very nice Ontario Sired Yearlings in the sale. One particular colt was out of a French Deputy mare by Niigon was a truly spectacular speciman to look at. Sorry the mares name escapes me. It is a very different market U.S. to Ontario or Canada for that matter. I always love going to the Keeneland Yearling sale in September, as i love to look at probably some of the best Yearlings anywhere. For me, i feel its important to look at Yearlings at the KY sales as it keeps me moving forward, always wanting to better what i have & hopefully accomplishing that down the line. I bought both of our mares in the U.S. although they are strong Canadian breeding, they are perfect for here, but their offspring wouldn't be popular at your sales due largely to their breeding. Particularly the one mare we have. I would love to have a mare i could breed to be competitive on both sides of the border, but we are a very small operation and at this point our focus has been breeding for Ontario.

There have been some terrific horses that have come out of Canada but, we do i think, have a tougher time competing with the U.S. market depending of course what type of mares we might own. I don't think many people on here would depute with you the fact that our program and calibre of horses is much different than that in the U.S., particularly KY. I also feel & like breeding to U.S. sires as i feel it can only strengthen the breeding program here.

I do like the Ontario Breeding Program, & i really enjoy breeding for here, but i do think its good to go outside of my own back yard, so to speak to see what others are breeding in the U.S. it broadens your thinking and your mind, & that can only be a benefit.

AscotStud · Postby **AscotStud** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:33 pm

I'm slightly confused about the arguing about the Canadian sale. I attended the Sept sale for the first time and I don't think you can compare it to the sales in the states. Nothing was based on reality. No offense and I'm all for breeder's incentives, but I saw a lot of pretty bad horses go for a lot more than they were worth just because they were Ontario sired. Those horses wouldn't have sold for a fraction at Keeneland or even Fasig Tipton. After watching the racing at Woodbine all summer, the horses in the restricted races would have a hard time competing for $25,000 in the states. That said I would love to have an Ontario sired foal to sell I just don't think it can be compared to any other market.

Thank you, now I know I'm not alone, nor are my friends from the States that can't understand the Sale either.

AscotStud · Postby **AscotStud** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:42 pm

One particular colt was out of a French Deputy mare by Niigon was a truly spectacular speciman to look at.

That's the thing that most people here don't get...French Deputy mare = awesome!!! people (not from Ontario) are excited...by Niigon, 95 out of 100 American or foreign buyers would say who the hell is that, killing it's worth at a real sale. Here, many buyers at the sale would probably rather have a War Deputy mare than a French Deputy mare and drool over Niigon yearlings. It is the twilight zone. Try telling a buyer at Keeneland you have to see this yearling by (name your favorite $5k stallion) he looks awesome, they will say so what he's by so and so and move on...but not in Ontario.

westover · Postby **westover** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:33 pm

If someone has a nice mare, like the French Deputy mare that was bred to Niigon to produce that looker of a colt in the Select Sale in September, all the power to them. Good mares, are the only way to better our own breeding programs here.

The only way to better our industry is to support it.

A.S. i am amazed you stand stallions in Ontario as you are so down on the industry here. :shock:

Fair Play · Postby **Fair Play** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:01 pm

I would much rather compete in ON sired races, especially with maidens when the whole field might not be worth the purse

, than against the AP Indy's, Giant's Causeways, etc that you hook in open company. It is our reward for living in this blizzardy climate. If we are lucky enough to get a mare with decent pedigree and better race record, it is better to sell her to an American or someone who will breed her to a better stallion, and keep the ones destined to the ON sired program here.

AscotStud · Postby **AscotStud** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:43 pm

A.S. i am amazed you stand stallions in Ontario as you are so down on the industry here.

We started bringing in Stallions because of the quality that was here and feel that aside from Peaks and Valleys and Milwaukee Brew I think we have the next best stallions in Ontario. we see a flaw in the system and have brought in stallions to improve it...what is wrong with that. Just because 90% of the trainers at Woodbine have not heard of a horse that hasn't run at Woodbine doesn't mean that we won't breed mares that will produce better foals.

I'm not down on the industry here...it just makes me laugh whenever I see one of the guys who think the are big up at Champions...then I think oh ya he bought that OSS horse for 100K for that guy & it can't break its maiden for 5k...then I laugh, but feel bad for the owner.

Fair Play · Postby **Fair Play** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:33 am

AscotStud wrote:I'm not down on the industry here...it just makes me laugh whenever I see one of the guys who think the are big up at Champions...then I think oh ya he bought that OSS horse for 100K for that guy & it can't break its maiden for 5k...then I laugh, but feel bad for the owner.

At least he gets to see it run. Feel worse for the owner with a great turf pedigree who needs an open NW2 or 3L on the turf who gets put on the poly every time a dark cloud goes by, or some of the small local guys who have supported racing here for decades only to lose all their stalls to Americans with big barns and great quality open horses.

I do see what you are saying and there have been some er um questionable prices of yearlings over the years, but I have never suspected that all were "real".

I am not familiar with the PA bred, or IL bred programs. Are they similar?

briarhalo · Postby **briarhalo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:50 pm

Anybody know if "Last Edition" sold? What she sold for? Just curious....

Thanks.

Fair Play · Postby **Fair Play** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:24 pm

http://www.cthsont.com/docs/sales/2009W ... esults.pdf

She fetched $8000 carrying a Tomahawk.

westover · Postby **westover** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:01 pm

Well yes there are a lot of trainer's who don't follow racing internationally, but its because they only race here & i can see how that happens. I love racing anywhere. Keep in mind, there are breeders who don't even like racing and don't follow it? That blows my mind?!?

A.S. there hae been some terrific horses come out of Canada/Ontario ( and the west etc.. don't mean to exclude you), i have no issue at all with someone trying to better the industry here in Ontario, or anywhere for that matter, i think its great. Its your attitude toward the industry here, I just get this feeling every time i read one of your posts that you feel far superior to "the little local breeders of Ontario". That my friend is whats stuck in my craw! :lol:

I agree FP that there were some heavy prices paid in previous years for some Ontario Breds that seemed to be concentrated around one farm & its connections. It was a little Sketchy!! :shock:

I think Gardiner has done a terrific job with the stallions it has brought in. I do think Milwaukee Brew is a terrific addition and will do well, & i should add, i do think Mr. Stronach (lets be frank lol) has supported his own stallions heavily. I just like to whine about the $5000 hike in price lol I also love Peaks & i do like Trajectory as well. I think Gardiner has worked hard to support Ontario Breeders, & have really supported their own stallions. I also saw they bought some nice mares in Keeneland in November. Whew i am exhausted now lol

briarhalo · Postby **briarhalo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:48 pm

Fair Play wrote:http://www.cthsont.com/docs/sales/2009WinterSaleResults.pdf

She fetched $8000 carrying a Tomahawk.

Thank you very much Fairplay. That was the one I meant earlier I liked. I believe I got the name wrong. Would have liked to have seen what she looked like. NOT that I was buying...but, as said earlier, something was calling me to her.

Mood Swings · Postby **Mood Swings** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:43 pm

briarhalo wrote:
Fair Play wrote:http://www.cthsont.com/docs/sales/2009WinterSaleResults.pdf

She fetched $8000 carrying a Tomahawk.

Thank you very much Fairplay. That was the one I meant earlier I liked. I believe I got the name wrong. Would have liked to have seen what she looked like. NOT that I was buying...but, as said earlier, something was calling me to her.

It's probably a good thing you didn't see her then as she was a solidly built good looking mare

soft hearted · Postby **soft hearted** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:54 am

AscotStud wrote:
A.S. i am amazed you stand stallions in Ontario as you are so down on the industry here.

We started bringing in Stallions because of the quality that was here and feel that aside from Peaks and Valleys and Milwaukee Brew I think we have the next best stallions in Ontario.

I'm not down on the industry here...it just makes me laugh whenever I see one of the guys who think the are big up at Champions...then I think oh ya he bought that OSS horse for 100K for that guy & it can't break its maiden for 5k...then I laugh, but feel bad for the owner.

Now THAT is funny. Not.
I personally know of an awful lot of horses by at least one of your "influence" stallions that got GIVEN away to other careers because: They canNOT run. Or don't want to. Either way, it doesn't leave you room for laughing at the poor schmucks who are supporting racing by breeding, in Ontario or anywhere.
The fact that you think your stallions are All That AND the Bag of Chips as well, while you laugh at more schmucks is a bit insensitive. And throat cutting.
Not that your stallions aren't nice, or very welcome, but your attitude could use some - polishing?