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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:41 pm 
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This is arcane, but stick with me. I am going somewhere with it.

Back in the 1960s, there was a South American bred horse named Primordial II who won the Display Handicap at Aqueduct. If memory serves correctly, it was then a 2 1/16 mile stakes race. Yes, in those days the NYRA circuit closed sometime in the late fall and ran some very long races.

Primordial had papers allowing him to race in the US, but not to be used for breeding according to a rule requiring 8 generations / 100 years of TB breeding and demonstrated racing ability. Upon scanning the JC rules, I cannot find this generation/year span rule. Is it no longer in effect?

Primordial pedigree:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/primordial2

His sire's 3rd dam, Hablilla, was a daughter of Vadaukblar, whose female line traced to the Mogador mare:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/vadarkblar

Who is listed as the foundress of Argentine Family 2, and who has no dam of record.

Assuming somehow that this generation/years of demonstrable racing quality rule remains in effect, would it be possible to cross a TB mare with an Appaloosa stallion, retain the fillies with Appaloosa markings, and continue to keep crossing generation after generation with good TB stallions until one had individuals with enough generations/time of TB breeding--and who had Appaloosa markings--who could then be registered as a TB???

This is all hypothetical. I realize how impractical such a project would be.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:35 am 
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I don't think the 8 generation rule applies in the US.......BUT it still applies in the UK which is the foundation stud book of all TB's...so yes you could add any breed and get an unsual coat colour or pattern.
Angrove who has her coloured 2yo in training is planning for the 8th generation of her breeding will eventually be allowed in the GSB General Stud Book. Her boy is in the NTR Non Thoroughbred Register with Weatherby's as he is 15/16ths I believe.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:19 am 
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Thanks. I've been curious if this 'loophole' could be applied if there was anyone with deep pockets and multi-generational interest in the project to carry it out. I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:36 am 
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Hi Truly your right thats exactly what we are doing I also have a mare here who is by Clantime, and he was let in as he is the 8 generation rule

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:27 pm 
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IF the Appaloosa Project folks are correct about the genetics there are two genes on two separate chromosomes needed to make an appaloosa pattern.

So lets say you start in the first generation with a fewspot who carries two copies of the blanket pattern, and two copies of LP (the appy roan pattern)

LP LP PATN PATN x lp lp patn patn (solid TB)

The resulting offspring would all be:

LP lp PATN patn and should be carry some type of appaloosa pattern

Crossing one of these back to a solid TB would result in:

LP lp PATN patn x lp lp patn patn

LP lp PATN appaloosa

lp lp patn Solid

LP lp patn Appy Roan

lp lp PATN Solid

While this looks like possible with 1/4 of the horses showing the appy characteristics, each breeding is a unique and separate event. So you can't just breed four mares and expect to get these results.

A better way to go about it might be to wait till the Appaloosa Project folks come up with testing for both genes, and then test anything that looks like it might be showing color.

Look for LP in any horse that shows hoof stripes, or white eye. Since PATN won't show up unless LP is present this one would be harder to find, and would require bulk screening of a lot of horses.

For the record I suspect that both genes may be present in the TB gene pool, but at very very low levels, and with strong suppressor genes.

This of course is not the popular view, which is that there are no Appaloosa TB's and there aren't going to be any Appaloosa TB's ever.

The Quarter Horse folks are now having to deal with the Appy pattern showing up out of solid regular QH's. Much pointing of fingers, tearing of hair and casting aspersions on the pedigrees and character of horses and owners.

And of course if the Appaloosa Project folks are correct, the whole definition of what is an Appaloosa needs to be re-examined. Much high drama from the some of the breeders.

Bays are all the product of two genes:

Black base coat (E)
Agouti (A)

and you can breed a black horse to a chestnut and get bays. Happens all the time.

EE aa (black horse)
ee AA (chestnut horse)

Ee Aa (Bay horse)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:09 pm 
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I wish someone would work on getting dun and/or silver into TBs. They would be SOO much more interesting! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Very interesting topic BAST. Thanks for posting it. Don't miss to check up these other previous postings:


This thread was posted sometime ago on achieving an appaloosa Thoroughbred:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... 04&start=0


This thread was posted on achieving a champagne Thoroughbred: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... 14&start=0


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:14 pm 
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Thanks for the links. I will go back and read them! :D

I've read through a lot of the threads here while lurking. I've never owned or been involved with Appaloosa's, but although I am fond of most equines, including mules, I really do love those spots.

Long ago and far away I took some serious genetics coursework.

I'm not sure why there would be any resistance to a spotted TB, save for silly emotional reasons. Bay is my favorite flavor of coat color, but I've only owned chestnuts and greys, selected for pedigree and conformation. Spots and chrome are fun, but a great individual with any markings is best of all. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:50 pm 
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BAST,

You may want to check these other threads:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=15611

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/forum/v ... oroughbred

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/forum/v ... oroughbred


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:02 pm 
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BAST,

Famous French breeder, Madame Elisabeth Couturie once tried to insert the lineage of her blue-eyed mare Fanny along with the lineage of the genuine white Thoroughbred MONT BLANC (1963) into the Thoroughbred breed by using the same long term strategy you are discussing here. But unfortunately she passed away during those years. Its a very interesting story that can be read in Chapter 3 (pages 83-112) of the book: "Makers of the Modern Thoroughbred" by Sir Peter Willett.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:16 pm 
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accphotography,

The following information may not represent a new paradigm for you and all of us, but at least it is worth mentioning :D :

According to the official source book, "Sires of American Thoroughbreds" published by The Blood Horse (1968 edition), the following two sires were officially registered as "Duns". Of course, most probably, the criteria used for this designation can surely be questioned, but here they are.
go figure! :P

01. WISE ABE, Dun 1939, by Wise Sir, out of Miss Montez, by *Polroma
02. TY TIME, Dun 1949, by Band Time, out of Opal Smith, by Barney Lucas


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:30 pm 
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I've never seen that before!! How odd!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Jorge wrote:
BAST,

Famous French breeder, Madame Elisabeth Couturie once tried to insert the lineage of her blue-eyed mare Fanny along with the lineage of the genuine white Thoroughbred MONT BLANC (1963) into the Thoroughbred breed by using the same long term strategy you are discussing here.


Thanks. I will have to track down that source. I remember reading about her white Thoroughbreds decades ago in the Blood-Horse back in the days when White Beauty was foaled here. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Jorge wrote:
accphotography,

The following information may not represent a new paradigm for you and all of us, but at least it is worth mentioning :D :

According to the official source book, "Sires of American Thoroughbreds" published by The Blood Horse (1968 edition), the following two sires were officially registered as "Duns". Of course, most probably, the criteria used for this designation can surely be questioned, but here they are.
go figure! :P

01. WISE ABE, Dun 1939, by Wise Sir, out of Miss Montez, by *Polroma
02. TY TIME, Dun 1949, by Band Time, out of Opal Smith, by Barney Lucas


They are down as Buckskin in pedigree query...so is Ty Times dam.

The English call a buckskin a dun..so I don't know if that is a mix up?

Does anyone know what year people in the US started calling horses by their correct genetic colour?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Duns were called buckskin and vice versa until about 1960 I think, maybe a bit later.

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