Oxbow
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ILL CALL HIM A BAY ROAN Years ago my friend had a andalusian/TB mare. her sire was gray and her dam was bay. Celebrity never greyed out but had significant roaning throughout her coat and a skunk tail, looked alot like Lucky Chappy. No one will ever convince me the roan gene doesnt exist in TBs somewhere and some day the JC will recognize a true "roan".
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Skipitgirl wrote:ILL CALL HIM A BAY ROAN Years ago my friend had a andalusian/TB mare. her sire was gray and her dam was bay. Celebrity never greyed out but had significant roaning throughout her coat and a skunk tail, looked alot like Lucky Chappy. No one will ever convince me the roan gene doesnt exist in TBs somewhere and some day the JC will recognize a true "roan".
Why not just call a rabicano a rabicano? That's what I'd call Lucky Chappy and Show Me the Moolah. Oxbow may be rabicano too. I don't see a skunk tail there but sometimes it's just a few white hairs at the base of the tail. The rabicano 'signature' is the skunk tail but they may have intense roaning all over, often most pronounced on flank & hindquarter. The genetic mechanism of rabicano is not yet identified. It doesn't involve the marker associated with "true roan" in other breeds and that marker has yet to be documented in the TB. Whatever genetic mechanism causes rabicano is definitely present in the TB gene pool and has been since the foundation stage.
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Oxbow is a bit of an anomaly in terms of colors. Until he's been DNA tested, the best we can say is he's a bay with extensive white ticking. Whether that ticking is the result of sabino, rabicano, or (a very unlikely) one-off mutation is impossible to clarify without pulling a few hairs for UC Davis to have a look at.
He is not grey or roan because both genes are dominant, and a horse must have at least one parent possessing that color in order to inherit it. (Oxbow's sire and dam are of course both ordinary bays.) The only true roans presently in the TB gene pool all descend from Catch A Bird who carried a one of a kind mutation, and as far as I know, the handful that exist have not left Australia. It seems possible that we'll find that roan has multiple source mutations like sabino and dominant white do. That would certainly go a long way to explaining the varying expressions of white ticking found. But it seems to be far less common.
Given how much white Tizamazing has, I would guess Oxbow's ticking is the result of sabino. Ticking is not uncommon with the sabino pattern, though usually it is accompanied by more leg and face white, at least in TBs. Sabino ticking with very little other white is often found in Morgans however. There are several on this page:
http://www.morgancolors.com/sabino.htm
Given the bit of white on Oxbow's lower lip (a common sabino indicator), and the all over ticking, even on his head, I'm pretty sure his unique coloration is an unusual expression of sabino. It's also possible that the ticking is a weird dispersion of rabicano hairs, but we have not yet been able to determine if rabicano is in fact separate from sabino. Also, not all rabicanos have skunk tails or at least not hugely noticeable ones, and skunk tails can be found on sabinos.
He is not grey or roan because both genes are dominant, and a horse must have at least one parent possessing that color in order to inherit it. (Oxbow's sire and dam are of course both ordinary bays.) The only true roans presently in the TB gene pool all descend from Catch A Bird who carried a one of a kind mutation, and as far as I know, the handful that exist have not left Australia. It seems possible that we'll find that roan has multiple source mutations like sabino and dominant white do. That would certainly go a long way to explaining the varying expressions of white ticking found. But it seems to be far less common.
Given how much white Tizamazing has, I would guess Oxbow's ticking is the result of sabino. Ticking is not uncommon with the sabino pattern, though usually it is accompanied by more leg and face white, at least in TBs. Sabino ticking with very little other white is often found in Morgans however. There are several on this page:
http://www.morgancolors.com/sabino.htm
Given the bit of white on Oxbow's lower lip (a common sabino indicator), and the all over ticking, even on his head, I'm pretty sure his unique coloration is an unusual expression of sabino. It's also possible that the ticking is a weird dispersion of rabicano hairs, but we have not yet been able to determine if rabicano is in fact separate from sabino. Also, not all rabicanos have skunk tails or at least not hugely noticeable ones, and skunk tails can be found on sabinos.
Equine Color Genetics Made Easy http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html
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I didn't know you were a member here.
I think it's possible he could be a new roan mutation. Stranger things have happened. Highly, highly unlikely, but possible. Based on what I've seen of his tail, IMO there is no way he has that amount of roaning on the body and virtually no white in his tail at all and that be caused by rabicano. I think sabino is definitely the most likely culprit here, even though I agree it is unusual to see this much roaning with so little markings.
FWIW Awesome Again also has significant ticking, though not nearly to the extent of Oxbow.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5931 ... 3e22_b.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c1k3Migy0D8/T ... w-9498.jpg
I think it's possible he could be a new roan mutation. Stranger things have happened. Highly, highly unlikely, but possible. Based on what I've seen of his tail, IMO there is no way he has that amount of roaning on the body and virtually no white in his tail at all and that be caused by rabicano. I think sabino is definitely the most likely culprit here, even though I agree it is unusual to see this much roaning with so little markings.
FWIW Awesome Again also has significant ticking, though not nearly to the extent of Oxbow.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5931 ... 3e22_b.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c1k3Migy0D8/T ... w-9498.jpg
mumtaz wrote: The only true roans presently in the TB gene pool all descend from Catch A Bird who carried a one of a kind mutation, and as far as I know, the handful that exist have not left Australia.
Apropos Catch A Bird roans, enjoy these good examples already posted here:
RiddleMeThis wrote:Lavender Fields at her third trial
After that day they decided she wasn't cut out to race.
FROM:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/post ... e&p=267757
Wonderful pix, Jorge! I'm so happy that the Winning Colours Farm people stepped in and saved CAB's roan offspring.
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While the phenotype of the Catch a Bird roans looks the same as the roan gene present in other breeds, it may not be. Clearly it is a new mutation--founder Catch a Bird, as the founder. My guess it is another KIT mutation, similar to traditional roan. This may be similar to the DW situation, with a number of distinct mutations lumped together.
What needs to happen is for one of the roan "girls" to produce a very fast running roan colt.
What needs to happen is for one of the roan "girls" to produce a very fast running roan colt.
Mumtaz,
Thanks for your comments and valuable postings.
What surprises me most on this fascinating topic
of the Catch A Bird "roans" is how after more than
200 years of its complete absense from the Breed,
now that it has re-appered (whether genotyped or phenotyped),
very very few breeders are showing any perceived
interest in trying to save this color for the benefice of
the Thoroughbred breed and the horse world.
Even more, the re-emergence of this coat color,
should obligue Thoroughbred authorities to tidily
re-assemble their actual "grey" and "roan"
definitions in order to make room for the solid reality
that is unfolding right before of our eyes.
As per the curious appearance of Oxbow's phenotype,
there seem to be no problem at all right now, unless
later on he begins throwing progeny of unique phenotype,
like it happened with Catch A Bird. At this moment, Oxbow
has to be defined as just another normal "bay" who happens
to be fashioning many dispersed white hair markings ("roanings").
Apropos the name of the avatar: "Mumtaz", it makes me recall the
very nice Mahmoud broodmare who produced from the cover
of the great Native Dancer, the one-race undefeated runner
Dancing Dervish who later sired the good runner Prince Astro.
DANCING DERVISH (grey h 1960) http://www.pedigreequery.com/dancing+dervish
Thanks again for your participation.
Thanks for your comments and valuable postings.
What surprises me most on this fascinating topic
of the Catch A Bird "roans" is how after more than
200 years of its complete absense from the Breed,
now that it has re-appered (whether genotyped or phenotyped),
very very few breeders are showing any perceived
interest in trying to save this color for the benefice of
the Thoroughbred breed and the horse world.
Even more, the re-emergence of this coat color,
should obligue Thoroughbred authorities to tidily
re-assemble their actual "grey" and "roan"
definitions in order to make room for the solid reality
that is unfolding right before of our eyes.
As per the curious appearance of Oxbow's phenotype,
there seem to be no problem at all right now, unless
later on he begins throwing progeny of unique phenotype,
like it happened with Catch A Bird. At this moment, Oxbow
has to be defined as just another normal "bay" who happens
to be fashioning many dispersed white hair markings ("roanings").
Apropos the name of the avatar: "Mumtaz", it makes me recall the
very nice Mahmoud broodmare who produced from the cover
of the great Native Dancer, the one-race undefeated runner
Dancing Dervish who later sired the good runner Prince Astro.
DANCING DERVISH (grey h 1960) http://www.pedigreequery.com/dancing+dervish
Thanks again for your participation.
Here is an even better close-up photo of Oxbow with his neck full of white "roaned" hairs like if he were genuine one.
http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... B960%3B743
http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... B960%3B743
Jorge wrote:Here are the cases I was referring to:
LUCKY CHAPPY photo already posted here:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lucky+chappyaccphotography wrote:That is as roaned as any "non roan" I have EVER, EVER seen!!!BookieBuster wrote:Here is another photo of LUCKY CHAPPY taken at Churchill Downs last week.
You can really see the white in his tail in this shot.
OXBOW photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/oxbow3
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/hor ... kness.html
SWEET RETURN photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/sweet+return
http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... return-(gb)-112.html%3B700%3B559
SHOW ME THE MOOLAH photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/show+me+the+moolah
http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... wI#imgrc=_
While pondering on the possibility of a cross between a pair
of "roaned" equines such as OXBOW; LUCKY CHAPPY;
SWEET RETURN; and SHOW ME THE MOOLAH I realized
that all of these Thoroughbreds are males. Then the
following question came to mind. Can we mention and
provide evidence any mare whose phenotype is similar
to the aforementioned quartet so that a crossed can be
achieved? Would like to know if there is any ratio
of "roaned" males vis-a-vis "roaned" females.
texistence and phenotype
of OXBOW; LUCKY CHAPPY; SWEET RETURN;
and SHOW ME THE MOOLAH the following question