Mating Advice (Unbridled's Song x Starboard Tack)

[dray33]

I would like to throw my hat in the ring for some simple suggestions. I know this type of information is usually a "pay-for-service" type deal, but this is the "Mating Advice" topic... so any input would be greatly appreciated.

I own a racehorse who is currently running. Her name is Staria (see pedigree here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/staria2) She was a beautiful, "racy" yearling filly, I loved her family. She moved quite well, but from early on she had the nagging back issues many Unbridled Song's seem to experience. She is 3 now, and finally we are getting her some relief... I think she will race a few more times, get better and be able to break her maiden. Her first race was impressive, broke dead last, stayed last throughout, and closed down the stretch in a furious charge to miss by a nose. She has heart. Come January/February, most likely I will take her off the track and breed her. She is not a large filly, not small, listed as Grey/Roan, white patch on her head like Rockport Harbor. Mellow, except when she is feeling good, then can be quite a handful.

Breeding to Staria presents some difficult choices. If the resulting foal is a colt, I will sell him (needs commercial appeal), and if it's a filly, I will race her (needs racing appeal). I know, I know, tough to do. Large and small breeding farms have been kind enough to express interest in boarding and breeding to her, I guess with her pedigree she has enough commercial appeal. As for the sire, price is not a major issue.

Who would you breed to?

Thank you...

[madelyn]

Well if she was mine she'd go to Rocking Trick!!

But I also really like her with Forest Wildcat.

[kimberley mine]

Hi Dray,

How about Hennessey?

A nice-looking colt will definitely have sales value, and if the filly is anything like Madcap Escapade you'd do just fine.

Edit: given the soundness issues you stated, it's worth noting that he was fast juvies, but also has a couple of runners (e.g. Silver Tree) who are still winning stakes at 6.

[HR LLC]

Officer...

[zinn21]

You can't go wrong with an Awesome Again to sell or race.

[kimberley mine]

Zinn21, I thought about Awesome Again too, and in this case I respectfully disagree. My only concern with him is that he is very much a feast-or-famine sire, with (at last check of the bloodhorse stallion register) only 60% runners and 37% winners. Of his big-name runners that spring to mind--Ghostzapper, Toccet, Round Pond, Wilko, and Spun Sugar--only Spun Sugar has been competing consistently without too many soundness issues. Wilko had quarter cracks, Toccet's ankles were off, Ghostzapper was just plain fragile, and Round Pond had some kind of foot issue.

Dray's intention is to race a filly, so the foal needs to have a good chance of just getting to the races. Given Staria's soundness issues and Awesome Again's tendency to throw soundness problems, I think he is a poor choice for Staria.

Despite some very interesting linebreeding and a cross to Storm Cat (who has crossed well with Fappiano), I would not recommend Forestry (at 36% winners) with Staria for the same reason.

And one more suggestion, can't believe it didn't cross my mind before...

Successful Appeal...Fappiano + Valid Appeal = good.

[dray33]

Interesting thoughts. I agree with your assesment of Forestry, I am a huge fan but beginning to think there is some soundness issues creeping into the mix with him. Successful Appeal is an interesting choice. I was thinking the following:

The whole Storm Cat family seems to fit, although the soundness concerns me. That group includes FORESTRY, GIANTS CAUSEWAY, HENNESSY is interesting. Maybe Freud?

MINESHAFT or MALIBU MOON gives me SEATTLE SLEW 3x3... too tight I would guess, thoughts?

I love all the DEPUTY MINISTER sires, so any of those... ideas? TEN MOST WANTED?

DIXIE UNION
FOREST CAMP (Vice Regent 3x4)
INDIAN CHARLIE (like his runners, sales are OK at best)
PLEASANTLY PERFECT (bad Nick rating, but I love the sire)
THUNDER GULCH (I think we might have a winner here... LOVE this mating).
INCLUDE Another winner, strong, big boned.

Thats where I am at so far.

[madelyn]

You mentioned if it was a colt you would sell... I suggest that Giant's Causeway's sales results would strike him off your list.

Hennessy looks nice..

With a 50% chance of getting a sales offspring (colt), again, I would not really be looking at Coolmore horses. You have a very nice mare with the opportunity to get a nice sales horse.. getting caught up in the pissing match between Darley and Coolmore just doesn't seem to be a good idea at this point.

[kimberley mine]

The whole Storm Cat family seems to fit, although the soundness concerns me. That group includes FORESTRY, GIANTS CAUSEWAY, HENNESSY is interesting. Maybe Freud?

That's part of why I suggessted Hennessy. He has enough support from non-Darley to get good sales prices, and although they are quick he also is getting his share of horses who are running on after May of their 2yo season. I credit (blame?) that to his female family. Since Staria has been running on grass, it's worth noting that he will throw a top-notch grass runner like Grand Armee.

MINESHAFT or MALIBU MOON gives me SEATTLE SLEW 3x3... too tight I would guess, thoughts?

It will be dangerous commercially to breed to Mineshaft next year, since his first foals are yearlings now. If you get a colt and he hits, you're sittin' pretty. If not, you have a horse you will have paid about $150k for that buyers won't touch.

Malibu Moon and Mineshaft (and Pulpit for that matter) will not only be 3x3 to Seattle Slew but they add in 3x5 to Mr P.

I love all the DEPUTY MINISTER sires, so any of those... ideas? TEN MOST WANTED?

Silver Deputy, if you don't mind 3x5 to Mr P.

DIXIE UNION
FOREST CAMP (Vice Regent 3x4)
INDIAN CHARLIE (like his runners, sales are OK at best)
PLEASANTLY PERFECT (bad Nick rating, but I love the sire)
THUNDER GULCH (I think we might have a winner here... LOVE this mating).
INCLUDE Another winner, strong, big boned.

Dixie Union is 3x4 Seattle Slew through Capote and Starboard Tack. If that's too close for you, it's too close. Doing a great job otherwise. While we're talking 3x3 Seattle Slew, Stormy Atlantic brings in Storm Cat. That same cross produced $650k winner Atlantic Ocean.

Forest Camp looks like a nice choice (go Madelyn!).

Indian Charlie...ehhh, read this (http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/AEISIComparison.htm). The In Excess horses are brilliant fast but tend to be fragile, and Indian Charlie. Something to consider for racing.

Pleasantly Perfect...you would be breeding to him on a bubble year. Commercially dangerous if you get a colt.

Thunder Gulch is riding the coattails of his mares. Every now and then he gets a good one, but he gets a whole lot who don't do much. You can do a lot better than median earnings of $13,500 and average earnings of $50,000 on a $25,000 stud fee. Out of Place for $7500 at Claiborne will get you better median earnings, better average earnings, AND a better percentage of stakes winners.

Include...I would wait a year on him and see how his 3yos do.

[ak1]

Please no laughing as I love to look at pedigrees but am certainly no guru! And would love feedback so I can continue learning

Along the lines of Hennessy, what about Wiseman's Ferry? Foal out in NY, sell as NY bred (where he has a nice reputation) and or keep to race. His female side brings in some strains of interest. And Wiseman's Ferry does not stand at Coolmore!

Also like the idea of Malibu Moon (really like Macoumba) and Include.

Looking at Three Chimney's site, Smarty actually looks interesting, though I can understand wanting a more established sire for a first foal.

What about Cozzene? Would he add soundness to counter the nagging problems Staria has had?

Also at Gainesway, Smoke Glacken, is another solid one. Would this crossing of Mr P be detrimental? Or does fall into the thinking that Fappiano line is atypical? He can certainly get you a racehorse.

Have heard really nice things about Dixie Union and the look of his foals. Do the colts have "sales" value? The Dixieland Band branch of Northern Dancer has always been a nice solid one.

And my question about Staria....will she be better as an older mare (and perhaps have grown out of her problems)?

Ann

[dray33]

Interesting, and thanks. I think Staria will make a fine mare right off the bat, her touchy-back issues are not bad enough to keep her off the track. She has never used any winstrol or steriod, she should be easy to get going.

Hennesey looks great, all good points. I love Three Chimneys, especially Dynaformer, Point Given, Rahy, Smarty, War Chant, all interesting stallions. Dynaformer is probably my fave, that might be interesting. Also, hopping over to Adena, I love (although popularity has waned at the sales) EL PRADO, they also have excellent Dep Min stallions like TOUCH GOLD and GHOSTZAPPER (soundness?).

The idea of a NY bred is interesting, but I bet FREUD would be a good choice too... same line as GIANTS CAUSEWAY.

GREAT POINTS about the Coolmore/Darley fighting. It's out in the open now. Better to be in between than wrong-sided! Be watching this with interest, for many reasons.

[dray33]

Any way to inbred to a female family, aka RASMUSSEN factor?

[Cree]

I just love Staria's female family (Sam-Son Farm family). There have been some good one's from that female line, and I remember seeing pictures of Staria when she was a yearling. Just a beautiful filly.

I don't really have any other suggestions, everyone here is far better at this than me, but I am familiar and interested in the female family, so I have a little more to say.
Not just because I am a biased Canadian, but I would want to throw some Vice Regent her way.

I liked what someone said about Cozzene, since he has been bred to Staria's half sister, Star Queen (somebody liked those 2 together). Problem is, Star Queen's Cozzene colt only sold for $7,000, and her Cozzene filly just RNA'd at this year's Keeneland Sept for $70,000. So, what about Mizzen Mast? I guess he would be a bit of a gamble right now (I just really like that horse).

I am a big fan of Pleasantly Perfect, and he would be a nice fit, and that sire line has worked with this family. It would also add some soundness. Pleasant Tap is great, but not the most commercial of sires too.

One original suggestion I have is Rahy. He has Bop, Watch The Bird, and Zahwah from Fappiano mares. He has Vow from a Seattle Slew mare.The only Unbridled's Song I can find that he was bred to was Unbridled Elaine, and I don't think the resulting foal has started, but for some reason I think that filly had knee problems (and I don't think Unbridled Elaine is throwing soundness to her babies). And throwing a little Halo at Staria wouldn't be a bad thing. So, maybe Giant's Causeway is a good fit, with the Storm Cat and Rahy.

Good luck!

[Keith]

How about breeding Staria to Johannesburg who is off to a fast start at stud and you would be linebreeding Mr. Prospector 4x5, Northern Dancer 5x5, and Grand Splendor 5x6.

Beau Genius would be an interesting cross line breeding Victoria Regina 4x5 and Northern Dancer 4x5 as well as Boldnesian 3x5.

Tiznow would be another interesting cross linebreeding Icantation 4x5, Seattle Slew 3x4, and Northern Dancer 5x5x5

If you are thinking of linebreeding Seattle Slew I would seriously consider Stormy Atlantic.

Keith

[dray33]

TIZNOW presents a fascinating mix. SILVER DEPUTY is a great stallion too. OFFICER too. They seem to do well at the sales.

My preference here is to breed to a stallion that is know for soundness, PLEASANTLY PERFECT seems a good choice there, INCLUDE (coming from the BROAD BRUSH family) but something that can yeild a nice sales prospect if its a colt. I certainly don't want a sire that started 5 times... rather, a well boned healthy racehorse that ran at 3-4, and hopefully retired sound. RAHY, SUCCESSFUL APPEAL fit. DISTORTED HUMOR?