Timonium sale

[BridledObsession]

This sale is disgusting, not by the horses they are presenting but by the buyers stupidity.

Wow, winds. I always enjoy reading your posts, but today's strike me as a little harsh. Were you personally hurt by these sales? It seems to me that the market will vary every year and part of the business is trying to anticipate it.......which is almost impossible. Could it be that some of those "stupid" people saw something that you did not? As we've seen over and over, horses that are supposed to be successful on paper sometimes amount to nothing, while others surprise you. I suppose I'm a little put off by your comment because I believe you can produce a good race horse that is non-commercial. I personally like to use conformation, genes/pedigree and movement as a guide to future success. We also happen to like size in our horses.....however, if these bigger horses do not succeed, the trend will no doubt reverse itself.

Also, if the "stupid" people were buying up horses that will end up being unsuccessful, it seems as though the sale was a good place for educated buyers. I realize this hurts some sellers, but again, if it was easy, everyone would do it.

[winds]

I'm not saying that they had Keenland book one or two pedigrees. None of these horses did, that's why they are here. But the majority of the avg size horses didn't sell mostly because of their size. I saw the offset knees and the maybe to straight shoulder etc, but I also saw well balanced individuals with racehorse breeding and they were giving them away. Well, not all of them, the not sold % was almost 33%. That's a lot of money for people to eat because people want big horses as yearlings.

I'm the first one to admit, I want to buy a bargain and if someone is willing to eat a good portion of their money, I'll hand them the fork. But I don't like to see the majority of them eating their money. That's not good economics for the industry either. I don't mind big yearlings, I worked for a man that had good sized mares so we had big babies, but we also didn't run them until they were 3. I broke them as yearlings, got them going good and galloping up to 2 miles, had them used to the gate and then turned them out for the winter. I'd then put them back in training that spring and would keep them going until it was time to send them to the track in the spring at 3. They had tons of miles in them, they had their gate card, they were fit. But they also were turned out during the days, sometimes they'd go on trail rides, they had fun too. Until it was time to crank on them because they were going to NY. How many people are willing to take the time with the bigger horses?

I don't have a problem with bigger horses, but I don't think it's fair to the smaller ones or their connections to not want to pay a decent price for them because they're small. Plus, will the time be taken with these bigger yearlings? I doubt it.

You know I respect you and your opinion, but I guess this may be a point we don't agree on.

winds

[madelyn]

It seems to me that we have nearly reached the point where there are two separate and distinct industries, the "sales" horse and the "race" horse. Problems may loom if we have too many people breeding and buying the "sales" horse (pinhookers) and not enough buyers for the "race" horse.

[BridledObsession]

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you've said. If people are just after "big" regardless of conformation, pedigree, etc, well.......that's a head scratcher for me. And you're 150% right. Most people will not let the big ones mature before racing them. We have two (minimum) at the farm right now that are proof positive of that. Obviously, we plan on doing it differently and as of right now, plan on keeping our babies to race ourselves, so we don't have to worry about them being abused.

It is a shame that the market is being hard on many people in the industry at this time -- particularly if it's simply a matter of size. You can't give people brains though, or make them any smarter. All we can hope for is that the people who are "stuck" with horses they wanted to sell, manage to sell them at a good price later on or make a nice profit by racing them themselves.

[BridledObsession]

As a side note, ironically, the two horses at the barn who remain the soundest with the longest racing careers (one is going on to eventing and the other to showing) are at opposite ends of the spectrum size-wise. We're having various issues with all the guys in between..........go figure.

[LB]

winds, I agree with everything you're saying.

By the way, size was hugely important at the Keeneland Sept. sale too.

[KBEquine]

As one of the other posters sitting near Winds, at one point I leaned over & whispered that when talking to a stud farm in Kentucky to arrange a 2007 breeding, the guy asked me about my mare & I said, "Stakes-placed as a 2 y.o., 16 hands or a little over . . ." and his immediate response was, "So you need to up-size her."

What I saw at the sale was this -- good paper got looks, but like the small Quiet American filly, it didn't get good bids without size/conformation.

Conversely, good conformation/size could overcome a somewhat light pedigree [but not NO pedigree].

But size was a real criteria among buyers.

Then again, we left early, so I could have missed something.

[Gerry]

I didnt make the sale and really wanted to see my clients filly sell so I watched on the computer. I will admit I was surprised when the bidding stopped at $7K..I thought mid-teens but it didnt seem like there was a market for the Wiseman's Ferry foals.
There were a couple of fillies that if I had been there I would have bid on...nice pages and the prices were low so I am guessing they were small(er).

[winds]

KBEquine you saw it all, it was the same throughout the whole sale. I'm hoping that it cycles back to a few years ago soon, then if you had a nice pedigree (not awesome, just racehorse) and the yearling was athletic you had a chance at making some money.

winds

[cathyd]

It was a blood bath for the small breeder
I even x-rayed and scoped this year
what a waste, no one looked. I told all of the people that looked at her that they were done (22) lookers
I had four come to see me after she went thru the ring. telling me I got
#### and trying to buy her for change.
She is by Partner's hero. Didn't expect to retire, just get back what I had invested, and hope for breeders awards.
I brought her home this afternoon and will be making phone calls tomorrow.
My gut told me to out her yesterday.
I'm sure there will be more outs Wednesday.
call me sour grapes, but it was/is a bad sale
cathyd

[merse]

cathyd,

My sympathies are with you. I don't think I am going to ever bother with xrays/scopes etc. in the future. I have done it for the last couple of yearlings I sold and no one has even gone in to look at them. To me, unless you know you are in the big money arena, the small breeder just gets taken again. The consigners all say that "at least they are in there if anyone is interested" but I looked at a lot of yearlings on Saturday and only one outfit said anything to me about the repository.

merse

[Monmouth Matt]

I know how tough it is to comment on price without being there (couldn't make it this year) but I am shocked by the pricing. I buy to race and am seeing impressive race pedigrees go for 5k-15k....some of these are state-breds (Pa-Ny) that can run for super money. Has the market reached the overbred situation as far as the region goes?

[KBEquine]

I've been told I'm over-thinking this breeding/selling stuff & going about it all wrong, apparently like lots of sellers at this auction.

-- I should just get a graded stakes winning mare - with tons of other blacktype under the 1st two dams & then breed her to a popular stallion [Geez. Why didn't I think of that?] & consign the resulting foal with a well-known consignor who can represent it to other well-known bloodstock agents. They said that making money on the sale is a way bigger thrill than watching your horse win. [A concept which I think pretty much separates the businessmen from the horsemen.]

They also tell me that all this looking for racemares & researching pedigrees & matching sire & dam conformation & actually trying to breed a racehorse on my own is an utter waste of time when there's an easier way.

Of course, the "they" in question was one of those well-known consignors who ever so graciously offered to help pick said graded stakes winning mare, too.

We [HiddenEchoFarms & I] were talking that there needs to be a place to sell future & current racehorses at a fair price. It seems form & price don't always follow function.

Don't get me wrong - there were some very nice horses selling appropriately & there were some horses who didn't look like their pedigree & sold like it. But there were some potentially very useful future racehorses who were nice but not big and had good but not outstanding pedigrees who fell through the cracks.

[winds]

The Timonium Sale used to be where you could buy a racehorse at a reasonable price. As the buyer you had a chance at recouping the purchase price and then some and the seller was able to make a little too. For some reason it has changed and not for the better.

winds

[Ill-bred]

The buyers, particularly the pinhookers, are quite selective in what they're looking for, but I think some of you are over-emphasizing the role of size and how it playd a role in this sale.

Good individuals with clean vet reports are selling quite well here. Even those with light pedigrees.