Jackson's Full Dislosure would be good.....

[winds]

Roke,

Thank you sweetheart..............( blush )

But you are correct that it is a sad state of affairs when there has to be a task force or rules to govern integrity in this sport. That should be the norm and it's not. And we wonder why we can't get more owners, and fans?

winds

[clh]

I think folks are missing the point or just don't care in my opinion. No one seems to care that you can't get new owners or fans into the business as long as the big guns continue to run the show and things stay status quo. Talked to a consignor today and they were complaining about book placement for November. They said Keeneland pretty much told them tough luck that they had $25,000 stud fees sitting in Book 7, so Keeneland itself doesn't care and why should they? We continue to go there to sell our foals and mares and we continue to buy there. They certainly don't care if the system is changed or not. As I mentioned earlier a trainer already said he tried to get them on board for some major changes. So bottom line is - the folks who want to do things unethically will continue to do so whether it is dual agency (they will find away around it), drugging horses, ripping off owners, etc... and when and IF they are caught - nothing wil be done to them - and things will carry on just like before. With however, fewer and fewer people getting involved in this really wonderful sport and business.

Bleh! I'm having a bad day ;(

[winds]

You are correct clh. I guess it's going to take a grass roots effort, in action by those that believe we need to be ethical by not buying from consignors that don't have full disclousure and by talking it up at the sales. The more people that are involved eventually changes will happen. But it needs to come from US, the people within the industry that care. There are more of US than them, they just have more money. But the middle sales horses right now are strong, so now is our chance to start making a statement.

How about if those that do go to the sales post the consignors that did have full disclosure on say 85% or more of their consignment. So those will be the positive consignors. Then we can compile a list of the negative consignors, those that don't meet the 85% mark.

With a list like that, word will get around and if the consignors on the negative list start feeling a financial impact in the neg. maybe some changes will be made.

winds

[casallc]

I think folks are missing the point or just don't care in my opinion. No one seems to care that you can't get new owners or fans into the business as long as the big guns continue to run the show and things stay status quo. Talked to a consignor today and they were complaining about book placement for November. They said Keeneland pretty much told them tough luck that they had $25,000 stud fees sitting in Book 7, so Keeneland itself doesn't care and why should they? We continue to go there to sell our foals and mares and we continue to buy there. They certainly don't care if the system is changed or not. As I mentioned earlier a trainer already said he tried to get them on board for some major changes. So bottom line is - the folks who want to do things unethically will continue to do so whether it is dual agency (they will find away around it), drugging horses, ripping off owners, etc... and when and IF they are caught - nothing wil be done to them - and things will carry on just like before. With however, fewer and fewer people getting involved in this really wonderful sport and business.

Bleh! I'm having a bad day ;(

Most agents don't have a clue about the common law of agency let alone dual agency. What will happen with regulation is that all the responsibility will fall on the owners as with real estate. The owner will have to make full disclosure and the "agents" will actually represent no one except themselves. If something goes wrong the agents will throw their hands up and kick it back to the owner. Agency requires a fiduciary responsibility to the client before yourself. When was the last time you noticed an “agent” more concerned for the benefit of their client than their own? Laws and regulations are fine for lawyers, it is what keeps them in paychecks. For those in the business it will be of little benefit and much expense.

[clh]

EEEEK!!! How utterly stupid and ignorant of me to even think that an agent I am paying money to would be looking out for my best interest - whatever could I be thinking????? Somehow I don't think my thinking is wrong - I think the money grubbing folks who don't know right from wrong are on the wrong side here. If I pay for a service I expect to get service for what I pay for AND I might add I pay GOOD money for a consignor to represent my foal/mare at the sales. I do not expect them to turn around and screw me and honestly - I should not even have to worry that they will. Perhaps I'm naive but I believe there is a basic standard of decency that people should adhere to. I know that some don't - doesn't mean I don't believe they should do it. I pay my financial advisor/stockbroker for a service - this isn't any different.

[madelyn]

Well the big difference is that your stockbroker passed the Series 7 exam, and is subject to SEC rules and regulations.

The horse business is ENTIRELY different, with no specific education, standards, etc. The only education I know of is the course I took to become a certified equine appraiser. I'm afraid I lean the other way, and tend to be suspicious. I believe that probably 70% (or more) of the people out there would tend toward larceny if they were reasonably certain of not getting caught or there being any repercussions.

[winds]

For the most part I think consignors will do everything in their power to get the best price for your horse at the sale.

It's the bloodstock agents that are a different breed. Unfortunately for me, this is the direction I'm taking in my career, Blood stock agent (not consignor). However, I'm not going to follow the same business path that all others have paved before me. To not be put in their catagory by those that don't know me I consider myself to be more of a consultant/breeding stock - racing manager.

I do not do business on a percentage, at all. Mine is all fee based. I don't like the status quo. I'm hoping more people will do the same.

winds

[majxmom]

I notice Stone farm has an integrity bulletin on their website - so it must be an issue?

That has been on their website for a while now. I also have heard that Arthur Hancock has a firm policy that he does not sell after the sale. If you don't raise your hand while they are in the ring, he will not sell it later at the barn, so everybody knows that there will be no back deals later. It must be refreshing to deal with a straight-up guy like that.

[casallc]

Well the big difference is that your stockbroker passed the Series 7 exam, and is subject to SEC rules and regulations.

The horse business is ENTIRELY different, with no specific education, standards, etc. The only education I know of is the course I took to become a certified equine appraiser. I'm afraid I lean the other way, and tend to be suspicious. I believe that probably 70% (or more) of the people out there would tend toward larceny if they were reasonably certain of not getting caught or there being any repercussions.

You are correct. If someone calls themselves an agent they are subject to the law that states:

"The Agent's primary fiduciary duty is to be loyal to the Principal. This involves duties:

Not to accept any new obligations that are inconsistent with the duties owed to the Principal. Agents can represent the interests of more than one Principal, conflicting or potentially conflicting, only on the basis of full and timely disclosure or where the different agencies are based on a limited form of authority to prevent a situation where the Agent's loyalty to any one of the Principals is compromised. For this purpose, express clauses in the agreement signed by each Principal with the Agent may identify specific types or categories of activities that will not breach the duty of loyalty and so long as these exceptions are not unreasonable, they will bind the Principals.
Not to make a private profit or unjustly enrich himself from the agency relationship.
In return, the Principal must make a full disclosure of all information relevant to the transactions that the Agent is authorized to negotiate and pay the Agent either a prearranged commission, or a reasonable fee established after the fact."

Does your agent get your OK to accept another client? Did you make full and detailed disclosure to the agent?
If those calling themselves agents knew how close they are to a lawsuit, that they will lose - they might change occupations.

[casallc]

For the most part I think consignors will do everything in their power to get the best price for your horse at the sale.

It's the bloodstock agents that are a different breed. Unfortunately for me, this is the direction I'm taking in my career, Blood stock agent (not consignor). However, I'm not going to follow the same business path that all others have paved before me. To not be put in their catagory by those that don't know me I consider myself to be more of a consultant/breeding stock - racing manager.

I do not do business on a percentage, at all. Mine is all fee based. I don't like the status quo. I'm hoping more people will do the same.

winds

I don't know where you've been but, usually, the consignors are "agents". If you don't plan on being a consignor your future as a bloodstock agent is going to be limited (as if your lack of knowledge of the business was not limitation enough). Happy private treaty sales.

P.S. I don't think you’re that good at sales - you haven't convinced me.

[winds]

casallc,

Your kind of client I don't need. I want someone who is knowledgable, considerate, loves the horse and the sport. You are none of those.

You're just a bitter person who wants nothing better to do with your life and time than to start trouble. This forum sure doesn't need the likes of you, but you are here and I guess we have to live with it.

Yes, consignors are agents, but not in the strict sense of the word, and for your information there are plenty of people who make a good living as sales agents and not consignors. I am just starting on this venture.

If you don't have anything postitive to add to the posts, please keep your comments to yourself. If you don't have anything postitive to say about other posters, stuff it.

winds

[Cathyleabo]

I wonder if full disclosure would result in a glut of unwanted horses.
If so,would this be temporary as full disclosure of health and history weeds out the permanently injured, sick or dangerous horses?
What will be done with those horses that are not sold?
One more: Would this cause a drop in horse prices, or an increase?

[winds]

I don't think so, at least not in the yearling, 2 yr old sales. If full disclosure about surgeries puts that much of a damper on the sale of a horse it really must be a bad individual. Most people either have the experts that know the difference or are knowledgable themsleves and know what they like and don't like. It might take the price down a few thousand, but no sale, I doubt it.

Full ownership disclousure I think is a must. I've watched first hand how for reasons of elevating a yearlings value owners will bid up the yrlng. Also, I witnessed a horse being sold (1/2 ownership) before the sale and the new partner signing for it after the sale. These are things that need to stop.

The lesser sales it might make an impact on, but a glut of unwanted thoroughbreds because of it, no.

winds

[casallc]

casallc,

Your kind of client I don't need. I want someone who is knowledgable, considerate, loves the horse and the sport. You are none of those.

You're just a bitter person who wants nothing better to do with your life and time than to start trouble. This forum sure doesn't need the likes of you, but you are here and I guess we have to live with it.

Yes, consignors are agents, but not in the strict sense of the word, and for your information there are plenty of people who make a good living as sales agents and not consignors. I am just starting on this venture.

If you don't have anything postitive to add to the posts, please keep your comments to yourself. If you don't have anything postitive to say about other posters, stuff it.
winds

I'll try to be as positive with my remarks as you are with yours:

"Don't worry casallc I don't think anyone with honesty and integrity would want to do business with you anyway."

What a phony!

[winds]

You know nothing about me. If you did, you sure wouldn't be saying all the negatives about me.

I have never in any of my business dealings, or when working for someone done anything to mar my credibility as a horseperson or integrity.

Apparantly all you want to do is say negative comments, I've read most of them since I've been on this forum. You have never written anything that says you are an honest, person. Maybe you are and have had nothing but contact with the dishonest people in the sport. This is what I'd like to change. If you think that anytime someone does the right thing is lying then may God Bless your soul. You need help.

I know I am an honest person, who is passionate about horses and this sport. I have always done the right thing and will in the future. If that is bull to you, may God Have Mercy On Your Soul.

I know I am right.

winds