Argentine Chefs_de_race;need for actualization

[Eduardo Alfredo Solveyra]

[quote="parlo"]As far as I have understood Franco Varola, his “chef-de-race”-concept is an open system. So everybody is free to declare his own “chef-de-race” sires and put them in his personal calculations. Varola even invites to such a procedure. In Germany, we are in a quit similar situation as in South America; there are some useful sires, who even gain importance in European racing and breeding (i. e. Acatenango, Monsun, Big Shuffle). But up to now they don’t appear in an “official” “chef-de-race”-classification, although they offer a fine outcross-opportunity to ND-based-pedigrees.

Apart from Steve Roman – is there any scientifically based study whether a large number of “chef-de-race” sires in a pedigree of a horse improves his breeding success? Up to now I haven’t found anything in that direction.[/quote=Eduardo]
I think there should be a International governing board dedicated to choose the cheffs de race under pre-established criteria such as they are doing with pattern races in every country.

[Eduardo Alfredo Solveyra]

[quote="Pete"]Hi all,

Might I suggest that you assign your own aptitudinal groups to stallions you feel have passed on specific aptitude to their get and not wait for Dr. Roman to get around to it. It seems that many of his assignments are made to correct dosage on individuals that don't fit the parameters he had previously laid out.

I find dosage almost totally useless, but I do look at chef status and I have assigned aptitude for many stallions on my own. Nothing formal, just a mental note.

Eduardo, I've had Cipayo as a C/P for some time but never assigned Good Manners, so I'll accept your I/C. Actually, Dr. Franco Varola might not have assigned Good Manners even if he felt it was warranted because the assignment would normally be made if the son's aptitude was different from the father.

Regards,

Pete[/quote=Eduardo) I don't agree with your last opinion, There are inclusions of cheffs with identical aptitude than their father's.(Ribot-Tom Rolfe,etc.)

[parlo]

@Eduardo Alfredo,

why should there be an International Board to register and classify "chefs-de-race" when there is no proof that many or an "above-average" number of "chefs-de-race" in the pedigree of a specific horse is an indication of its better racing-class or stud-performance?

[Bill from WA]

SOUTH AMERICAN CHEF’S DE RACE


BRAZIL

SIRE________________APTITUDE

Antonym_________________P
Burpham_________________I/C
Clackson_________________B/C
Coaraze__________________B/C
Earldom_________________ B/C
Felicio___________________I/C
Formasterus________________S
Fort Napoleon_____________C/S
Ghadeer___________________B
King Salmon_______________C/S
Locris_____________________B
Pass The Word______________I
Pharas_____________________B/C
Sabinus____________________I
Sandjar____________________C
Swallow Tail_______________B/C
Tumble Lark________________B
Violoncelle_________________C
WaldMeister________________P

ARGENTINA

Cipayo_____________________B
Con Brio___________________I/C
Congreve___________________I/C
Dancing Moss________________S
Good Manners_______________B
Guatan_____________________B
Imbroglio___________________P
Jerry Honor_________________B
Laramie Trail________________B
Lord Wembley_______________C
Make Tracks_________________B/I
Practicante___________________P
Seductor_____________________C
Sideral______________________C
Snow Cat____________________B/C
Solazo_______________________I
Vitelio_______________________C

Bill

[Eduardo Alfredo Solveyra]

[quote="Bill from WA"]SOUTH AMERICAN CHEF’S DE RACE


BRAZIL

SIRE________________APTITUDE

Antonym_________________P
Burpham_________________I/C
Clackson_________________B/C
Coaraze__________________B/C
Earldom_________________ B/C
Felicio___________________I/C
Formasterus________________S
Fort Napoleon_____________C/S
Ghadeer___________________B
King Salmon_______________C/S
Locris_____________________B
Pass The Word______________I
Pharas_____________________B/C
Sabinus____________________I
Sandjar____________________C
Swallow Tail_______________B/C
Tumble Lark________________B
Violoncelle_________________C
WaldMeister________________P

ARGENTINA

Cipayo_____________________B
Con Brio___________________I/C
Congreve___________________I/C
Dancing Moss________________S
Good Manners_______________B
Guatan_____________________B
Imbroglio___________________P
Jerry Honor_________________B
Laramie Trail________________B
Lord Wembley_______________C
Make Tracks_________________B/I
Practicante___________________P
Seductor_____________________C
Sideral______________________C
Snow Cat____________________B/C
Solazo_______________________I
Vitelio_______________________C

Bill[Eduardo/quote]Dear Bill: I think that the inclution of stallions into the categories is a matter of opinion and the horses you propose have, to my knowledge, merits to be there but I disagree whith the categorization of Cipayo, Guatan and Good Manners in the Brillant group; I see Cipayo as the extension of the Swynford-Alycidon line whose basic characteristic is stamina; The same argument applies to Guatan; and Good Manners descend has won and is winning classic distances, for example the stallion Engrillado(Friul-Good Manners) gave two recent winners of our Derby (Gran Premio Nacional-2500 meters), regards

[Bill from WA]

Hi

Those are not my classifications. They were established by South American researchers, and I am merely passing on the information as I recieved it.

Regards,

Bill

[Eduardo Alfredo Solveyra]

[quote="parlo"]@Eduardo Alfredo,

why should there be an International Board to register and classify "chefs-de-race" when there is no proof that many or an "above-average" number of "chefs-de-race" in the pedigree of a specific horse is an indication of its better racing-class or stud-performance?[/quote= Eduardo)Dear Parlo: I believe in the influence of a few and select individuals(mares and stallions) in the evolution of the breed. That's why I see the method of clasification a good tool to approach the art of breeding good horses.Best regards.

[Pete]

Hi Eduardo,

My comment that Dr. Varola might not have made Good Manners a chef was not meant to slight him as a sire, rather than Varola mentions that some stallions are not given chef status because they sired similar aptitude as their own sire. His assignments sometimes contradicted this and I think you'll find that Tom Rolfe and others had their chef status assigned by Dr. Roman.

Bill,
I think of Cipayo (aptitudinally) without having studied his get, but horses like Payant and Toda Una Dama had success here in NA as routers. B aptitude doesn't seem right.

Pete

[Bill from WA]

Hi Pete

As I said, those aren't my selections. They are what have been established by South American sources. I don't happen to agree with some of them either, but that's the list that was forwarded to me several years ago. Perhaps there have been changes made since. Some of my conduit mare designations may seem off too, but when you look at thousands upon thousands of races, patterns do emerge. Maybe someone can locate an updated list of South American "chefs". I have lost touch with my source.

Bill

[Pete]

Howdy Bill,

I understand that they're not your assignment and my evaluation of Cipayo is empirical but I'm surprised to see someone designate him a "B".

I would advise everyone to make up their own chef list with aptitude and then publish your Dosage figures before the classics next year. Might be able to get yourself on TV if you're accurate

I'd suggest that there are far better ways to represent what dosage attempts to do. Dosage is a lazy method with juvenile calculations, overlaid on someone else's work. They add or change aptitudinal groups in the present (and future) to make the past conform. I wonder if any of these folks worked for the Nixon White House?

Regards,

Pete

[FOS]

hello Eduardo Alfredo Solveyra

Your insights and commentary are appreciated.

How about this Cipayo connection...and it couldn't be more recent (how about yesterday...June 11th...Belmont-day 2005).

For what it's worth...not only did Belmont Park have a 1 1/2 mile race on the dirt...but also Calder (in Miami, Florida) had a 1 1/2 mile race on the dirt...the $50,000 New York, New York Stakes.

The winner was Argentine-bred Perspicacious...by Payant (ARG) out of Primacy (ARG), by Lefty. The 6 yo bay horse...Perspicacious (ARG)...was bred by Ignacio Correas in Argentina.

As you know...Payant is a son of Cipayo.

Respectfully

[Bill from WA]

Hi

For what it's worth, Cipayo has one of the most stamina oriented conduit profiles I have ever seen.

1-2-5-13-3 (0.38)

Personally speaking, I would say he would add tremendous stamina to a pedigree, which makes his designation in the list I provided suspect (at least to me)

Bill