AI, What would happen...

[Sam]

Horse breeds that allow AI also allow breeding to other breeds but you can't register a thoroughbred unless its parents are registered thoroughbreds. There's good reason for this since inclusion of other blood (like standardbreds) may have some beneficial traits, but it would take at least 6 generations (ostensibly 60 years) to overcome the negative effects this blood would have on the speed in a pedigree and thoroughbreds are only about speed.

That's circular logic at best, Pete.

Where are you getting that just because you allow AI, you would have to allow outside blood? (unless what I'm reading there is wrong).

The Standardbred people certainly don't, neither do the Arabs and their gene pools are no more or less narrow than the TBs (Arabs even LESS so since they've been more or less a "closed book" since they began).

The only blood QH people let in is TB and the only outside blood Paints accept is TB and QH.

I'm sorry, Pete, but that part of your argument just doesn't make ANY sense.

[toadie]

Pete, yes AQHA allows some TB blood, but again there are registry restrictions. I just can't accept your gene pool argument. I think it's simply the old guard won't change.
Believe it or not, there are some breeders that breed TBs for purposes other than racing and we'd do it a lot more if AI were available. In fact, I know some that do it anyway and just accept the fact that they can't register the foals. That's really a shame, because there are some nice TB sporthorses competing and their pedigrees are getting lost.

BTW, nope it was Hagyard,etc. It was JEH Stallion Station in TX and Dr. Weems. Since they won't work with me and won't accept any blame, then I don't mind giving out the negative publicity! Anyone in the area who's thinking about doing business with them, and wants all the gory details, feel free to email me.

[horsenuts]

Pete, yes AQHA allows some TB blood, but again there are registry restrictions. I just can't accept your gene pool argument. I think it's simply the old guard won't change.
Believe it or not, there are some breeders that breed TBs for purposes other than racing and we'd do it a lot more if AI were available. In fact, I know some that do it anyway and just accept the fact that they can't register the foals. That's really a shame, because there are some nice TB sporthorses competing and their pedigrees are getting lost.

BTW, nope it was Hagyard,etc. It was JEH Stallion Station in TX and Dr. Weems. Since they won't work with me and won't accept any blame, then I don't mind giving out the negative publicity! Anyone in the area who's thinking about doing business with them, and wants all the gory details, feel free to email me.

I hear you Toadie. Sometime when I have the time I'll list all the fukcups I have endured with these farms. They'll hurt your horse and then stick you with the vet bill as you well know. They'll also kill one on occassion and send them home diseased and foundered... among other things.

[griff]

First, AI is and will continue to be used by many TB farms.

Second, if AI did result in inferior foals it would quickly be abandoned; i.e, Adam Smith is alive and well and the demands and economics of racing will insure the fittest survive. Racing QHs are 90% plus TB and thrive on AI. Fact is some of them are better bred TBs than many TBs and they get better and faster ever year.

Lastly, I'd like for Gunter P to identify the tests he cites. Are they fact or rumor and are they valid?

griff

[skeenan]

I'm not sure I understand how non-TB blood would be introduced *because* of AI... unless you had a breeder trying to pull the wool over someone by sending them semen from their next door neighbor's plow horse... but why is a foal tested then if not to prove/validate their parentage? I guess I'm missing something... I've been thinking it's so I (and the JC) have that assurance that my mare was bred to whom she was supposed to be bred to... otherwise, how can you be sure? I haven't been through it yet, so I don't know...

I also don't understand how it would negatively affect the gene pool, except through a rise in continual bad breeding choices, but that's the human factor... bad breeding choices, IMO, will always happen depending on who's doing the choosing. If someone liked a local regional stallion now, why would they change their mind because of AI...? Stud fees will still cost the same, so that will still limit people's choices. So I'm not sure I'm following the reasoning behind too many "small time" stallions being eliminated... economically, they would still be needed...

For those pedigree experts, it would open the door to making the BEST choice possible, as Shannon pointed out in her example. So "better" horses on paper would probably increase over time, with the elimination of geographic obstacles, I would think...

[camohn]

AI foals are not as good as LC foals? Now where da heck in left field did that one come out of? It's the same genes. You want to talk about stress You outta see the one ding a ling mare I have here at the moment to be covered. She is so stressed being in a private paddock (herdbound something awful) she has run a 10 inch deep trench along her fenceline in only 2 days. Thank God she is getting bred today and can go home. I am not putting her out with my mares w/ new foals and she does not get along w/ the other mare here to be bred for turnout.
AI and bloodlines: what the heck does AI vs. LC have to do with changing bloodline requirements? I don't see where shippping/doing AI = you can breed to outside stallions and change the registry requirements? The APHA and AQHA do allow outcrosses to TBs but that is regardless of weather it is AI or LC. It also would not change andy residency requirements for any state bred programs. ALl it changes of how the little wigglys get from point A to point B.
For stallion saftey the AI on site would be a bonus. It would eliminated clocked stallions and in a few rare cases allow stallions with "wee wee issues" to continue to breed. Sadly I have seen a few go through New Bolton for being Aced and getting a frozen/dropped penis from it. Beyond that I don't see how it will change any real boarding/shipping dynamics of the industry.
AI and shipped semen is a whole nuther ball of wax: There would be some impact on shipping and boarding for folks that do not care about state bred programs and residency requirements. BUT, as someone said, it's nto like those horses fall off the earth. Someone somewhere is still taking care of them. Would big farms that board a lot of mares possibly lose some board income? yes. But just think, they could do the breeding thing from a smaller farm and thus save on the cost of the real estate and it's maintenance. It sure would not put the repro vets out of business. AI is MORE vet intensive. I don't see how the use of AI would contribute to an increase in the horse population and bottom out the prices. Making it easier to beed to a stallion not down the street does not make a whole host of folks that were not previously thinking of breeding their TB mare run right out the door to do so. You pretty much have the same mare owers as before that were going to breed her. It will shift TO WHOM if they can swimmers in CA from KY wihout shipping a mare with foal. A few folks right now will spend a lot to ship a mare anywhere at any cost for the right stud......but I bet it's not the majority. Costs and concern about shipping a mare that has a foal at side are biggies. Shipping a mare cross country is 1200 each way. (Probably more now with the hiked gas prices.) If you had an extra 2400 by not shipping you could get a nicer stallion for that!! And there are fees involved in the semen collection and shipping, and yes some stallions ship better than others. A few rare mares have reactions to the extender and will not get in foal w/ AI unless it's a fresh/direct AI transfer (I had one of them). Overall for the health of the breed I think it would be a plus for a MO to be able to get the best match to her mare, not who lives the closest. It does not affect a lot of stallions, but in the case of older stallions with injuries or back problems it would make breeding possible or safer.
The biggest thing I see is that it would allow stallions to stand effectively on smaller farms. And maybe in Podunk AK where land prices are cheaper.
Big farms yes, would have to buy the AI labs. Little dudes like me wtih small books use repro labs like New Bolton or local repro vets with their own stuff. As the little fish I pass those collection costs along to the mare owner.
Collection fee is 125.00 weekdays/225.00 weekends. Equitainer rental = 45.00 and FedEx averages 60.00 so it costs an average of 230.00 to ship off the little swimmers on a weekday. On the MO end they have a couple vet visits to US for when to breed and do the insemination. AI in foal rates ARE about 20% lower than LC in foal rates after 1 cycle and 10% lower after 2 cycles. Still, personally.........I would rather risk 230 bucks and 10 to 20% less chance of success than shipping my foal.

[halo]

As usual the arguments against AI are ridiculous at best. If AI is allowed, it doesnt mean that stallion owners HAVE to use AI. And mares still have to be transported and boarded. Unless you live in an area where there are lots of repro vets, you would have to board your mare somewhere. Shipping semen and breeding mares AI isnt as easy as people would like you to think. Timing is critical, and Fed Ex doesnt always deliver on time, despite what they'd like you to think. Its similar to the argument against using a horse drawn carriage vs. automobile. Yes, changing to automobiles changed the landscape, changed jobs, put some people out of business, and employed many new ones. But it was all for the better. And to anyone who thinks it isnt as much "fun" for the stallions, then you havent seen a stallion bred AI. And they certainly dont have to be bred 3 and 4 times a day to exhaustion. And they dont have to worry about being injured by dangerous mares, or mares being injured by dangerous stallions. And there is NO WAY you can convince me that it will narrow the already dangerously narrow gene pool. If anything, it will open the gene pool. Do you really think with AI people will now think "oh boy, hot dog!!! I can now breed to a Storm Cat stallion...yeehaaa!!!" It is far more likely that genes from horses like Danehill and Sunday Silence and many more good Euro and Aus horses would be utilized. It would add to our choices, not narrow them.

[camohn]

People will still shop for stallions in studfee range X. And yes, on occasion FedEx should be named FedUp. I have found that FedEx screws up less when you ship to the local FedEx office and pick it up there yourself and not to a street address. They are more capable of finding their own office on time .

[camohn]

The subject of ET is an entirely different one as well. You can always say "we can do AI but only 1 foal per mare (except in the case of natural twins....and how often does that come out with a happy ending??) / no ET." ET WOULD increase the equine population faster if it worked all the time. The APHA and AQHA battled with that thinking everyone would run out and produce multiple foals. Didn't happen. For one thing for most folks it IS still very expensive and it does not work consistently and you can lose a lot of money trying. I know of multiple folks that spent something like 12K in a season w/ a well known repro vet to get 1 or none foals out of the deal. A few big farms w/ big bucks DO use it to get foals out of top performance mares........but it really is only worth spending that kind of money on a top performance mare.........the sort you want to perpetuate anyway and there are not a whole lot of.........the number of foals being produced this way is so small in the grand scheme of things that it does not affect the gene pool.

[Sysonby]

As a regional breeder, I would love if the JC went to AI. Even if there was a shipping limitation inside the state, my stallion choices would broaden. It is so much safer to send the blue Equitainer whizzing around the state than a mare and a baby. I can keep the mare with people I trust to take care of her and not with people who may or may not know what they are doing and may or may not give a rip about her or me, because they happen to stand a stallion who intrigues me.

Whether it is admitted to or not, I believe the primary motivations behind live cover in this country is the economic well being of Kentucky and vague notions of tradition. Horsenuts raises a very interesting point: the whole moral force behind the gene pool argument went away with the advent of the supersized books and Southern Hemisphere shuttling. At the risk of sounding like Chicken Little, it is getting tougher and tougher to find successful outcrosses like Hawaii, Noholme and Forli.

Will the real estate boom create it's own pressures? As more and more Kentucky farms are swallowed up, will there be less and less to preserve? Will there be a tipping point where the advantages for AI everywhere else overtakes the inconveniences to Kentucky?

I don't know but it is what I suspect would have to happen before the JC recognizes AI.

[Camish]

AI is a wonderful tool that would help promote and strenghten the breed. I love Thoroughbreds and they are all I have...except I only breed to QHs because I will only do AI as I don't trust them in anyone elses hands. And besides, I get more for my money, as I can breed to an outstanding stud in CA as apposed to breeding to a wanna be TB stud here in Iowa that throws squat for offspring; BUT his stud fee is the same (or higher) as the outstanding QH I can go to out of state. IMO AI would help the industy...yes it would take a lot away from the breeding farms and such but it would help us small time breeders who can't get to the nicer studs in KY, FL, CA, etc. Just MO.

[Green Hills]

That isn't true. Just off the top of my head, Qh's and Arabians don't allow breeding to other breeds. Well, arabians do, but they are registered as such (halfbreds) and don't get all the benefits of the registry the purebreds do. And, you don't think the gene pool is shrinking already with these shuttle stallions and others breeding to 200 mares a year? AI isn't going to change those numbers.

Uhmmm...QHs do allow breeding to TBs...and appendix registry which can be upgraded to full registry under a very clear set rules.

Per AQHA:

A horse registered with AQHA which is the result of breeding a Thoroughbred and an American Quarter Horse that has a permanent number, or a combination of an Appendix numbered American Quarter Horse and an American Quarter Horse with a permanent number. Appendix horses are distinguished by an "X" in front of their registration number and their certificates are gold.

There are three different mixes of horses that are eligible to be registered in AQHA's registry:

Registered Appendix (X) + Registered American Quarter Horse (QH) = Registered Appendix foal(X)

Registered American Quarter Horse (QH) + Registered American Quarter Horse (QH) = Registered American Quarter Horse foal (QH)

Recognized Thoroughbred (TB) + Registered American Quarter Horse (QH) = Registered Appendix foal (X)

Also, per AQHA for Appendix getting full Numbered registry:

203. TO OBTAIN A NUMBERED CERTIFICATE.
Except as otherwise limited on proper compliance with the rules and
regulations of AQHA, a stallion, mare, gelding, spayed mare or nonbreeding
mare may be registered in the Numbered section of the
Stud Book which:
((b) Previously has been listed in the new appendix, and (1) has
qualified for Register of Merit in AQHA-approved performance
events not restricted in any way (youth and/or amateur Register of
Merit do not qualify a horse for advancement), and (2) for which
AQHA has been provided a signed statement from a licensed veterinarian
in which it is certified that the horse does not have a parrot
mouth (see rule 205) and that if it is a stallion, it is not cryptorchid
(see rule 205).
(c) When a stallion or mare previously listed in the New
Appendix attains a registration number, any offspring listed in the
New Appendix shall on that date become eligible for advancement
to the numbered registry. Advancement of such offspring to the
numbered registry shall be on request from the record owner and
accompanied by the appendix certificate and payment of the
advancement fee, or
(d) Previously has been listed in the Old Appendix and which
(1) has had both parents acquire an AQHA number, unless this horse
already has been rejected on conformation inspection; or (2) has
qualified for one of the Registers of Merit; or (3) has passed conformation
inspection. Such horse then will receive a registration number.

[griff]

Green Hills

If the appendexed QH makes the grade and becomes areal full QH you can bred it back to a TB and start the process again.

If the horse does not make the transition and stays as an appendexed QH you can breed it to a QH and the faol wll be appendexed and you can start the process for that foal to become a QH.

griff

[Sysonby]

FWIW the Appendix section of the AQHA registry way predates AI, unless they were using AI in the 50s. The papers issued are a different color and I believe that full QH papers aren't registered unless the appendix foal earns a Register of Merit. There are different ways that that can be done.

BTW the only other breed is TB and that's chiefly because of the racehorse folks although Appendix QHs are now used in dressage, hunter under saddle and English pleasure as well. You won't find too many Appendix QHs at a reining or cutting show and those guys most definitely rely on AI.

[Green Hills]

FWIW the Appendix section of the AQHA registry way predates AI, unless they were using AI in the 50s. The papers issued are a different color and I believe that full QH papers aren't registered unless the appendix foal earns a Register of Merit. There are different ways that that can be done.

BTW the only other breed is TB and that's chiefly because of the racehorse folks although Appendix QHs are now used in dressage, hunter under saddle and English pleasure as well. You won't find too many Appendix QHs at a reining or cutting show and those guys most definitely rely on AI.

Those are the rules. But...if you go to a QH show you will find Appendix and Permanent Registered QH showing in the same classes with the same standards. Point being...breeding by AI or any other method to a TB is allowed by AQHA, in contrast to what was being said. And you will find some Appendix in Barrels and Poles as well.