Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[parlo]

... when there is a rash of injuries, why are the tb with a prolific number of inbreedings the 1st to succumb to injuries & breakdowns & those outcross tb don't have those hi % of injuries vs those FASHION BREDS. ....

When will you start to do a profound research and proof of you thesis ... then we will believe you - but till now you've obviously failed to do so.

You haven't proved that there are two well-defined and separable groups of race-horses of which one has a significantly higher percentage of "fatal or career ending injuries" - that's you personel problem. And you will not come out to solve this problem - and this might be our problem if we are unable to stop this silly thread finally

To be continued .... (unfortunately it seems so )

[louis finochio]

SPIN A SILVER WEB (USA) ch. M, 2002 DP = 5-3-16-0-0 (24) DI = 2.00 CD = 0.54 - 3 Starts, 1 Wins, ? Places, ? Shows Career Earnings: $14,600

Breeder: Donna M. Wormser
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 3 Starts: 1 - ? - ?, $14,600

Broke down in a 6 furlong allowance race at Hollywood Park on May 17,2006.

SASW had 18 crosses NP---14 crosses PH. thru his sires & dams. SASW was inbred 3 X 5 X 5 ND Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 4 Mr. P. Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 RAN Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 Gold Digger mare Nearco branch Ph.
SASW was a FASHION BRED THAT WAS INBRED TO THE SAME INBREEDING PATTERNS OF HIS CONTEMPARIES THAT SUSTAINED CAREER ENDING INJURIES.

[diomed]

Sir Galahad and Bull Dog do share many common strains with both Nearco and Mumtaz Begum so they are not as much as an out cross as it would appear in a 5 gen match.
There is Spearmint/St. Simon/Ajax/Black Duchess/Rouge Rose, etc.....
If anything, the match reinforces these strains. Very fascinating study.
The out cross(if any) is the American strains introduced through Nearco(Catnip's female line) and Mumtaz Begum(Americus Girl).
You do observe female strain influence, don't you Louis?

[parlo]

SPIN A SILVER WEB (USA) ch. M, 2002 - 3 Starts, 1 Wins, ? Places, ? Shows ...

Broke down in a 6 furlong allowance race at Hollywood Park on May 17,2006.

SASW had 18 crosses NP---14 crosses PH. thru his sires & dams. SASW was inbred 3 X 5 X 5 ND Nearco branch Ph.---4 X 4 Mr. P. Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 RAN Polynesian branch Ph.---5 X 5 Gold Digger mare Nearco branch Ph.

SASW was a FASHION BRED THAT WAS INBRED TO THE SAME INBREEDING PATTERNS OF HIS CONTEMPARIES THAT SUSTAINED CAREER ENDING INJURIES.

SASW is inbred 3x5 ND, his (sound sire) is inbred 2x4 to ND, his unraced dam is inbred 3x3 to Mr. P, this inbreeding dominates the inbreeding to Mr. P's sire RAN.

Obviously your system is wrong as you classify Big Brown's 3x3-inbreeding to ND as "not fashion". This doesn't make any sense!

[Patuxet]

Louis writes: "the vets are pointing their fingers at too much inbreeding". The vets!!!! And pray tell just what scientific evidence do they offer you to back up this claim?

Louis, blaming unsoundness on in-breeding is just a false argument vets use to rationalize pumping more problem-masking drugs into our horses -- and, not coincidentally, pumping extra money into their pockets.

Fast forward a few years to when the off-spring of chemically enhanced horses eventually show up at the track. When their inherent unsoundness once again become manifest, the vets will -- surprise! surprise! -- blame it on "in-breeding".

It's a vicious circle, Louis, one in which the vets are inextricably complicit. One shouldn't look to the fox for insights into improving the hen house. As for Arthur Hancock, my guess is that he's a better songwriter than a geneticist.

[diomed]

Vets are not scientists, geneticists, nor(I would guess)students of pedigree study.
They are valuable sources when discussing the physical problems observed, including used medications, etc but they cannot be a reliable source of genetic information unless they are actually trained and studied in genetics..
Sigh.....
Folks, I think our opinions on this matter are moot and it is pointless to mention the obvious to louis. I will give him credit for one thing.
He is stubborn!

[louis finochio]

the vets have seen the underpinning changes to smaller fragile ligaments & tendons thru inbreeding. The farriers are noe using a smaller size shoe as inbreeding has taken its toll on producing a smaller tb, the colts that are dominated by female family inbreeding have small heads that resemble a fillys head.

Our present day tb has changed thru the years, only those breeders that were around 30-50 years ago will notice these changes. The younger generation thinks these tb were always the same in conformation. Wait till those 2 X 3 matings of Storm Cat start to surface, they will add more unsoundness to those Fashion Matings. Buyer Beware.

[diomed]

See....
STUBBORN!!! ROTFLMAO!

[Worksoplad]

the vets have seen the underpinning changes to smaller fragile ligaments & tendons thru inbreeding. The farriers are noe using a smaller size shoe as inbreeding has taken its toll on producing a smaller tb, the colts that are dominated by female family inbreeding have small heads that resemble a fillys head.

Our present day tb has changed thru the years, only those breeders that were around 30-50 years ago will notice these changes. The younger generation thinks these tb were always the same in conformation. Wait till those 2 X 3 matings of Storm Cat start to surface, they will add more unsoundness to those Fashion Matings. Buyer Beware.

Louis: The TB has changed THROUGHOUT the last 300 years in the same way that the human species has. You cannot blame that on Phalaris or inbreeding. Just look at the average height, weight, and lifespan of the human species in every country due to the chasnge in diet, work life and exercise. In other words, its due to environmental changes, not inbreeding.

[diomed]

the vets have seen the underpinning changes to smaller fragile ligaments & tendons thru inbreeding. The farriers are noe using a smaller size shoe as inbreeding has taken its toll on producing a smaller tb, the colts that are dominated by female family inbreeding have small heads that resemble a fillys head.

Our present day tb has changed thru the years, only those breeders that were around 30-50 years ago will notice these changes. The younger generation thinks these tb were always the same in conformation. Wait till those 2 X 3 matings of Storm Cat start to surface, they will add more unsoundness to those Fashion Matings. Buyer Beware.

Louis: The TB has changed THROUGHOUT the last 300 years in the same way that the human species has. You cannot blame that on Phalaris or inbreeding. Just look at the average height, weight, and lifespan of the human species in every country due to the chasnge in diet, work life and exercise. In other words, its due to environmental changes, not inbreeding.

Excellent point but it's falling on deaf ears(or should I say blind eyes?).
Look how long humans are living due to environmental factors.
The avg life span used to be much shorter due to lack of knowledge in medicine and diet, etc.
You know how they keep changing the decades on us.
40 is the "new" 30, etc. LOL!!
I hardly think this is genetic. It's environment!

[parlo]

Well, may there be an affinity of "smallness" and "pedigree" through the dominant traits of Northern Dancer?

He was admittedly a small horse and most of his great progeny was on the small side too - with the exception of mighty Nijinsky II.

Obviously there is almost no inbreeding in the pedigree of Northern Dancer with the exception of mighty Gainsborough:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/northern+dancer

[louis finochio]

I have posted what the vets & farriers have told me in our discussions on how the beed is today conformation wise. If u dont agree with their points then u are going against the pros in our industry.

[parlo]

Well, @Louis, with the notorious repetition of your unproven thesis you are going against the pros in this forums.

Nevertheless "science" means searching for other possible explanations as well - even for definitely excluding them as influences.

[last half sentence added later ]

[Worksoplad]

And pray tell me, what are the names of these so called expert vets and farriers that I am going against?

[parlo]

... what are the names of these so called expert vets and farriers that I am going against?

Well, of course all the capacities of the Californian track's backstretches who know to make a slowly horse fast with the right medication and give our dear Louis lectures and advice where to look in his pedigree-research.