Eclipse Awards

[horsenuts]

Maybe Pletcher made him a dud. He flew around the track at the sales but he couldn't run a jump once Pletcher got his hands on the horse.

Why are people convinced that Pletcher gets the most out of a horse? Does the job that Marty Woldson did with Pomeroy convince people of that?

TP does as good a job as anyone horse in and horse out. No one's perfect as ALL trainers have horses "get away from them" that go on to do great things since racing first began i.e. Sunny Jim Fitzimmons ran Seabiscuit for $2,500 and sold him for $8,000...... Bill Mott ran Miesques Approval for $50,000 and you couldn't find him.... Wolfson got him and he was Champion turf horse. Countless other examples in "racings greatests claims". That's the nature of the game just like Tom Brady being a 6th round draft choice. Sports are unpredictable and why people love to watch them.

[Rokeby Forever]

That sounds like a copout. I can think of horses sent to Allen Jerkens that went on to great things, but I can't think of one he lost that went on to better things. Until you can name one, don't hand me that, "TP does as good a job as anyone horse in and horse out."

How about Rick Dutrow - can you name a single stake winner that slipped past him? And as far as "TP does as good a job as anyone horse in and horse out," what was Saint Liam when Dutrow got the horse? What was Silver Wagon? What was Silver Train? What was Kip DeVille? What was Sis City? How many claimers has he won stakes with? There's a guy that gets run out of stock!

[horsenuts]

That sounds like a copout. I can think of horses sent to Allen Jerkens that went on to great things, but I can't think of one he lost that went on to better things. Until you can name one, don't hand me that, "TP does as good a job as anyone horse in and horse out."

Oh boy.... TP handles more horses in one year then AJ has had in his life. Restricted numbers means less chance of a "horse getting away". AJ was great in his own right(albeit limited in numbers) and TP has done a splendid job in his own way. But if you can name another trainer that has won 4 straight Eclipses as "Trainer of the Year" I'm sure he'd have to be one of the all time greats.


But keep carrying your torch for Pletcher your pettiness is always good for a laugh or an eye roll at the very least. Giving credit is not always easy but it is usually a sign of maturity.

[Rokeby Forever]

Restricted numbers means less chance of a "horse getting away".

So, now you're amending what you originally wrote. I was simply responding to the question posed.

Giving credit is not always easy but it is usually a sign of maturity.

So you're saying that Cowtown Cat wouldn't have finished last in the KY Derby with just any trainer, and I should give Pletcher credit for a job well done? That's good for at least an eye roll, I would think.

Look at the credit above I gave to Rick Dutrow, who carries multiple strings across the country. Writing that I don't give credit where credit is due is below you, Horsenuts - you're smarter than that! I'm not a Rick Dutrow fan, but the man does turn "nobodies" into "somebodies."

[bdw0617]

damn that's a name i haven't heard in a while.. cowtown cat



anyway, this isn't even about pletcher. I dont' care if he gets a bunch of blue bloods in his barn and wins with them.

but doing it and still having to cheat to get to the top... I don't think any horse that is caught being doped up, or a trainer doing the dopping, or the owner of a dopped up horse should be up for any awards that year.

[Rokeby Forever]

I agree...and I still think Kiaran McLaughlin got robbed.

[Hold Your Peace]

Horse racing is all about money & winning and so long as TP keeps breaking his own record it will be hard to unseat him.

I thought Pletcher did a phenominal job with The Green Monkey. Why shouldn't he get an Eclipse?

Exactly. Outstanding Lawn Ornament of the Year.

I'm happy for Lawyer Ron. I've always liked him and was thrilled when he got his record at Saratoga. I hope that it helps him in the shed to be an Eclipse Champion although it's for older horse so it's hardly a 'look at me, I'm precocious!' kinda deal. I like that his estate kept him going once they realized they had nothing to lose and could get a year's worth of purse money (provided he continued to run 2nd or better so there wouldn't be a decent into crappiness and Stonewall would take over). We got to have him around and I rather enjoyed it. Glad to keep seeing Curlin and Rags. I bet they won't rematch because my life isn't that awesome but we can dream.

The Green Monkey's 3yo half sister Coat The Cubes (by Vindication) ran again the other day (off the board in a MdSpWt at Philly Park) so at least The Green Monkey can still say he's far and away the most accomplished runner his dam has thrown and it took her 9 or 10 starts herself to find the winners circle. Additionally, something like 47% of the Forestry's 4 and up have yet to win. So I'd put more of the "monkey" mistake on those who bought him than on Todd Pletcher.

[horsenuts]

Horse racing is all about money & winning and so long as TP keeps breaking his own record it will be hard to unseat him.

I thought Pletcher did a phenominal job with The Green Monkey. Why shouldn't he get an Eclipse?

Exactly. Outstanding Lawn Ornament of the Year.

I'm happy for Lawyer Ron. I've always liked him and was thrilled when he got his record at Saratoga. I hope that it helps him in the shed to be an Eclipse Champion although it's for older horse so it's hardly a 'look at me, I'm precocious!' kinda deal. I like that his estate kept him going once they realized they had nothing to lose and could get a year's worth of purse money (provided he continued to run 2nd or better so there wouldn't be a decent into crappiness and Stonewall would take over). We got to have him around and I rather enjoyed it. Glad to keep seeing Curlin and Rags. I bet they won't rematch because my life isn't that awesome but we can dream.

The Green Monkey's 3yo half sister Coat The Cubes (by Vindication) ran again the other day (off the board in a MdSpWt at Philly Park) so at least The Green Monkey can still say he's far and away the most accomplished runner his dam has thrown and it took her 9 or 10 starts herself to find the winners circle. Additionally, something like 47% of the Forestry's 4 and up have yet to win. So I'd put more of the "monkey" mistake on those who bought him than on Todd Pletcher.

Yes, but lets not let facts get in the way of a good hatchet job. TP has "only" won at close to a 25% win ratio for over 4 years now so he deserves all the bashing he gets...... in the minds of some anyway.

And rest assured TP thoght the same thing most racing fans did when he heard the purchase price of TGM.... ridiculous. Add to that the reports the sale was ficticious and the myth was on.

[horsenuts]

Restricted numbers means less chance of a "horse getting away".

So, now you're amending what you originally wrote. I was simply responding to the question posed.

Giving credit is not always easy but it is usually a sign of maturity.

So you're saying that Cowtown Cat wouldn't have finished last in the KY Derby with just any trainer, and I should give Pletcher credit for a job well done? That's good for at least an eye roll, I would think.

Look at the credit above I gave to Rick Dutrow, who carries multiple strings across the country. Writing that I don't give credit where credit is due is below you, Horsenuts - you're smarter than that! I'm not a Rick Dutrow fan, but the man does turn "nobodies" into "somebodies."

Rick Dutrow has had more then his share of bad tests and controversy and has always been under suspicion of many. But he's in good company as most of the top trainers of the 21st Century have been as well.


Just as in ALL other sports drugs are part of the culture due to advancements in medicine and chemistry as their is NO question they can significantly enhance performance be it for equine or human.

[Rokeby Forever]

Hiya, Horsenuts - you're saying that Rick Dutrow wins so many races and improves so many horses under a cloud of suspicion but Pletcher doesn't deserve a cloud of suspicion, huh? Then why did they BOTH serve the SAME suspension in 2007 for the SAME positive for Mepivicane? It's OK if one uses it but not OK if another does? Why should one have suspicion and another one not?

Let's do some simple math: I'm sure you'll concede that Todd Pletcher carries 200 horses at any given time (the number is closer to 250, but let's say it's 200). In 2007, Pletcher had 1,168 starts and 294 wins. That means that, in 2007, the average Pletcher runner ran 5.84 times and won 1.47 races. If Todd Pletcher said to you, "If I train 100 horses for you, they'll average 1.47 wins in the year of 2008," would you be impressed? With his stock, why can't he can't average at least six starts and two wins a year per horse?

Now, you might add, "In the summer, he trains a lot of two year olds." That's true - but what happened to the 200 horses now three year olds, 200 horses now four year olds, and 200 horses now five year olds? He doesn't run a claiming stable, so he's not losing his stock to other trainers - where do they go? Into thin air?

Let's hypothetically say that Pletcher won't carry a horse that can't run, so he carries only his best runners. So, if he can pick and choose which 200 he carries, why isn't his win percentage any better than 25%? Jerry Hollendorfer had a 25% win percentage in 2007, and much of his stock consists of cheap claiming horses. Guys like Steve Klesaris, Scott Lake, Tony Dutrow, Art Sherman, Bruce Levine, and Tom Amoss all had the same or higher win percentages than Todd Pletcher in 2007 (and in years prior), and they all run large claiming stables. Is it easier to win a race with a patched up $10,000 claimer than with a well bred, talented two or three year old?

I'm now seeing written that The Green Monkey was a mistake and his failure isn't Pletcher's fault. Then, why doesn't credit for the success of Pletcher's better stock go to the same people that make mistakes with horses like The Green Monkey? I see that none of Pletcher's owners won an Eclipse in 2007, so Pletcher gets all the credit and none of the blame, and Pletcher's owners get the blame but none of the credit - is that how it works? If I say to myself, "Coolmore made a mistake with The Green Monkey, so he's not Pletcher's fault, but Coolmore also bought Rags To Riches, so all the credit should go to Pletcher," does that make sense? If so, how?

You can't write that I'm bashing because all I've done is ask questions. If you would be so kind, please answer each one for me - I have an open mind. You're a smart fella, Horsenuts, which is why I enjoy writing back-and-forth with you...so I look forward to your answers.

[horsenuts]

Hiya, Horsenuts - you're saying that Rick Dutrow wins so many races and improves so many horses under a cloud of suspicion but Pletcher doesn't deserve a cloud of suspicion, huh? Then why did they BOTH serve the SAME suspension in 2007 for the SAME positive for Mepivicane? It's OK if one uses it but not OK if another does? Why should one have suspicion and another one not?

Let's do some simple math: I'm sure you'll concede that Todd Pletcher carries 200 horses at any given time (the number is closer to 250, but let's say it's 200). In 2007, Pletcher had 1,168 starts and 294 wins. That means that, in 2007, the average Pletcher runner ran 5.84 times and won 1.47 races. If Todd Pletcher said to you, "If I train 100 horses for you, they'll average 1.47 wins in the year of 2008," would you be impressed? With his stock, why can't he can't average at least six starts and two wins a year per horse?

Now, you might add, "In the summer, he trains a lot of two year olds." That's true - but what happened to the 200 horses now three year olds, 200 horses now four year olds, and 200 horses now five year olds? He doesn't run a claiming stable, so he's not losing his stock to other trainers - where do they go? Into thin air?

Let's hypothetically say that Pletcher won't carry a horse that can't run, so he carries only his best runners. So, if he can pick and choose which 200 he carries, why isn't his win percentage any better than 25%? Jerry Hollendorfer had a 25% win percentage in 2007, and much of his stock consists of cheap claiming horses. Guys like Steve Klesaris, Scott Lake, Tony Dutrow, Art Sherman, Bruce Levine, and Tom Amoss all had the same or higher win percentages than Todd Pletcher in 2007 (and in years prior), and they all run large claiming stables. Is it easier to win a race with a patched up $10,000 claimer than with a well bred, talented two or three year old?

I'm now seeing written that The Green Monkey was a mistake and his failure isn't Pletcher's fault. Then, why doesn't credit for the success of Pletcher's better stock go to the same people that make mistakes with horses like The Green Monkey? I see that none of Pletcher's owners won an Eclipse in 2007, so Pletcher gets all the credit and none of the blame, and Pletcher's owners get the blame but none of the credit - is that how it works? If I say to myself, "Coolmore made a mistake with The Green Monkey, so he's not Pletcher's fault, but Coolmore also bought Rags To Riches, so all the credit should go to Pletcher," does that make sense? If so, how?

You can't write that I'm bashing because all I've done is ask questions. If you would be so kind, please answer each one for me - I have an open mind. You're a smart fella, Horsenuts, which is why I enjoy writing back-and-forth with you...so I look forward to your answers.

I don't have time for all your repeated ad nauseum postings. You've covered these same subjects for years here and they have been addressed numerous times.


TP and his clients are focused on getting "the big horse" which means spending millions and millions to do so in hopes of a Flower Ally or Bluegrass Cat etc. When they hit with one they syndicate as stallions for millions and millions often recurring much of their investments. Look at a stallion book and you'll find many TP horses in there standing for some VERY handsome fees and why he continues to be sent good horses.


Very few of the top trainers of the 21st Century have not had bad tests. Scott Lake, Steve Assmussen, Dutrow, Pletcher among others. It's the world we now live in and it's no different in human sporting competition.

[Rokeby Forever]

Horsenuts - no answers, in other words.

So, we now turn the subject from win percentages to stallions? How much did Flower Alley's value tank as a 4 year old? Invisible Ink is standing for $3,500...he's in the stallion directory, Horsenuts. As far as this - yeah, we've been through it before.

Have a great day - catch ya later!

[going4stamina]

Very few of the top trainers of the 21st Century have not had bad tests. Scott Lake, Steve Assmussen, Dutrow, Pletcher among others. It's the world we now live in and it's no different in human sporting competition.

I, for one, refuse to accept that as standard operating procedure for this sport. Anybody who gives a damn about keeping racing viable should stand up too--especially the Eclipse voters.

Suspension, during the year should be an automatic for horse, trainer and owner to be discluded from Eclipse award--EOS.

Just wait until Mitchell gets ahold of the racing industry .

[Foggytrip]

You are right G4S

[horsenuts]

Horsenuts - no answers, in other words.

So, we now turn the subject from win percentages to stallions? How much did Flower Alley's value tank as a 4 year old? Invisible Ink is standing for $3,500...he's in the stallion directory, Horsenuts. As far as this - yeah, we've been through it before.

Have a great day - catch ya later!

In case you missed it TP had 3 Eclipse Champions last night(4 counting himself). Of 11 racing champions named Pletcher trained 27% of said champions including: English Channel(turf) / Lawyer Ron(older horse) & Rags to Riches(3 yr. old filly). In addition he trained the top 3 fillies of the 3 year old division RtoRs.. Octave & Panty Raid.


Value of above named horses? Well north of $50 million so you best get used to TP as his clients will have money to spend for sometime yet.