So you want to be an owner...

[st. louis kid]

Wilf, I hope you take no offense at my question, I meant no shot at anyone. I just seek info, as there are huge differences in what trainers charge, sometimes at the same tracks. I don't think being the highest means being the best perhaps.

[Laurierace]

Wilf, having been stabled in the same barn with you I can honestly say I would give you a horse to train anyday regardless of the rate.
I remember once I had a groom complaining about not making enough money. I told him I will give him all the money and he can pay bills and have whatever is left. Considering that more often than not that was a negative number, he opted to stick with the current pay schedule.

[Fair Play]

nice one Wilf

I am trying to fathom this:

$160.00 feed.
$60.00 hay
$100.00 straw
$25.00 Twin Lab Daily One Tab vitamins
$220.00 Exercise Rider
$30.00 Mechanical Walker fee.
$100.00 shoes
$50.00 lasix
$100.00 supplies
$50.00 tack.

That's $895.00 per month total to train one horse. That's $29/day. What did I forget?

I have worked it out to $46 per day per horse in labour alone. $15 per ride, 25 for a groom (they are on salary so we are paying into EI, CPP, Worker's Comp), $6 for hotwalker, and that is not including the "dead weight" of an AT who at times does not groom any but is still paid for out of day money and his 1% comes from the trainers 10%. Guessing 4 free jocks rides per month is absurd. Every barn has a few who need a big guy on them or who aren't going to start for months (so $15 x 30 or 31) so you just tick most jocks off by asking them to gallop rather than work one. In a pinch sure, but not on a regular basis unless you are at Tampa in the winter or you want your whole stable ridden by someone who has enough free time to gallop all day.

Hay, straw, and feed as well as its delivery and manure removal can vary. The $30 per day that was charged when I started out, put more money in the trainers pocket then than $80 does today.

The track bills lasix, we bill the same for the pony that we are billed: $30 a time, and we bill the same as the farrier who are far less expensive at the track than the farm. The bottom line is, most exercise riders and grooms have more money in their pockets in an average year than the trainer. Sure the trainer can get a good horse, but that typically doesn't happen every year.

[Jane]

Grooms wages at Woodbine are close to 700.00 a week, with deductions they take home around 550.00. A hotwalker takes home about 350.00, then you need a swing groom to cover for the various grooms days off. Freelance riders charge 15.00 per mount, this all adds up very quickly and accounts for the majority of your day rate.

[Des]

This is a very tough game. The one think that I can say is to be in this game you must keep your eyes open at all times and ask many questions. Also make sure that you are getting the services that you are paying for. You can get ripped off very easily. As for trainers making money off the monthly bills. I think some trainers do, they know how to budget their barn so that a little is left over for their pockets. Just my feelings....

[Sparafucile]

This has turned into a discussion about 'day rates'. It was never a question about day rates. I can only speak for myself, but I never questioned my trainer's day rates and I always paid my training bills immediately.

Like I said before, unless things change quickly, this sport is doomed. How can new owners be attracted and kept in this game when faced with trainers and vets who lack morals, principles, and have questionable motives.

I, for one, am getting out. It may take a while but over the last ten years I have spent a small fortune pursuing my dream. It has turned into a nightmare.

[Monmouth Matt]

As a small owner....usually 1-3 horses....primarily claiming, I'll throw my thoughts out there for what it's worth (probably not much!).

1. Spend at least a year reading the Form every day for the tracks you want to race at.......not to handicap the horses, but to handicap the trainers. Are the horses spotted properly....does he/she have to drop to win... does the trainer improve his claims or at least keep them level. When a horse gets claimed from the trainer, has the owner lost/broken even/made money (per $70 day rate & acquisition price)....watch for patterns....win % doesn't mean everything.

2. Spend an entire meet at the paddock/walking ring....watch trainers & help....are the horses fit....race-ready...does the help look experienced or just punching a clock....is the trainer in the paddock....

3. Go to the backside in the morning....hang out where the trainers gather to watch workouts (usually a couple of spots)....listen...observe. Who's operation is well planned and working like clockwork....who's bitching about not having a rider again....what trainers are there....who isn't there.

4. Don't laugh at this one.....spend some time at the bar that the winning connections usually gather at after the race....talk to the owners....talk to the trainer(s)....you find out alot about a guy away from the barn.

Quite a few other items, but gotta run for now. Most of these items seem basic, but I am continually blown way by how little many owners and trainers know about certain aspects of the business. Strive to know the biz inside and out and if on a somewhat limited budget start off claiming....not at the sales.

[Vindicated]

The one thing that no one that is doing the day rate math has thought about yet....
And the trainers on here have not perhaps taken into consideration....

What does it cost that trainer to live on?
those should be taken into consideration as well.....as an expense
hotel/motel fees, gas, food, cell phone.....
All of these MUST be taken into consideration when talking about day rates
this is not profit....

[Vindicated]

I agree with Monmouth Matt

First I pay attention too how the horses look, in the AM as well.....
A trainer that lets horses go to the track with poltice on their noses, and straw in their tails does not have much pride in their animals.

Second, I check out the vet lists...(well maybe not 2nd-but close to the top) this is pretty self explanitory....

The bar is a great way too get info...I have heard plenty to keep me out of certain trainers barns.....

Also, I would question a trainer that does not ask the owner questions...about their stock....what kind of horses they are looking for, expected returns...ect

[clh]

This has turned into a discussion about 'day rates'. It was never a question about day rates. I can only speak for myself, but I never questioned my trainer's day rates and I always paid my training bills immediately.

Like I said before, unless things change quickly, this sport is doomed. How can new owners be attracted and kept in this game when faced with trainers and vets who lack morals, principles, and have questionable motives.

I, for one, am getting out. It may take a while but over the last ten years I have spent a small fortune pursuing my dream. It has turned into a nightmare.

Unfortunately you are one of many who have gotten ripped off by dishonest people - and just to let you know - we have as well. We were on the breeding side however. The bottom line is if you have a trusting attitude you have to squelch it and trust no one in this business until you've known them for a long, long time (and then I'm not even sure you can trust them 100% then). You can do all kinds of homework like people suggest, but sometimes the best way to learn something is to just jump and learn it unfortunately there are those that are not willing to nuture you as they do in other businesses. I laugh as I look at my previous partners who are very knowledgeable and could make a very good living if they did it the honest way - as it is, they've just gotten caught falsifying state foaling records and had to repay breeders awards and the buyers of those foals had to repay purse money (isn't that great for business???) and their farm is now up for sale. Hey, what goes around comes around. Hang in there - it is my hope that you find someone you can partner with that will help you in this business - there is nothing more rewarding!

[Sock Monkey]

Sparafucile, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience and I very much agree with you that we are shooting ourselves in the foot by treating owner like you were treated. And, unfortunately, your experience is all too common - even for very experienced owners. The problem is that this business has so many variables, it's hard to tell if you are being treated fairly until you give it some time - and by then you've got a lot invested.

I'm sorry, but an owner shouldn't HAVE to know everything about the sport to be successful - that's why you hire people to train for you. Monmouth Matt's suggestions are interesting - but who has that kind of time and if you don't know much about horses how are you going to know what you're looking at? If you're going to make that kind of time investment, just get your license and do the training yourself. What needs to change is the attitude that owners are there to be bled dry and then you move on the next wallet(which is a very common attitude, but a very shortsighted one).

A few other points I'd like to address:

Trainers make money on day rate. They make more with purses, but they definitely make money on day rate. That's why someone would claim a horse to sit on for 9 months (referencing a post on this thread) - it's easy money.

Checking references is great, but the worst experiences I've had have come from the most highly recommended guys. And, conversely, the best experience I've had has been from someone I have continually had to defend my rationale for using. You need to find someone that fits what
you want. Oh, and the lists thrown out as example on this thread include many things that are billed directly to the owner.

There's a fine line between doing your due diligence and becomming a tire kicking PITA. Once you establish a reputation as a PITA the trainers you really want training your horse will stop answering your calls.

If someone tells you they've never had a bad experience in this business, they probably haven't run many horses. It's happened to most of us. Sparafucile, I hope you decide to reconsider and give it another shot, though.

[st. louis kid]

All right, you guys got me going now. I am an owner, have been for a long time. Seems to me some people need a reality check. This is a business to me, just like anything else I invest money in. If I can not realistically make a profit, I am not going to run the business. Do some math;
You say you need $70.00 a day to train a horse and then you don't really make any money. How can you expect me to pay that, show me in a business plan how I could even consider that. At $70 bucks a day plus shoes, vet, shipping costs, lasix, pony, license fees, etc. , you are asking me to spend at least $3,000 a month. That means my horse has to make $45,000 in purses this year just to pay for his care. I am not including aquisition cost of the horse. This is pretty tough to do for the average thoroughbred out there. So what you are doing is asking people to probably lose money for you to train their horse. People, the gravy train is over in our economy, you are not going to have customers. You are not Todd Pletcher, Nick Zito, Steve Asmussen, these guys have deep pockets clients who will pay $100 a day and lose money to be in the big time of racing. These types are disappearing in todays world.
If one of my restaurants takes in $500,000 in sales and my chef says he has to get $500,000 in pay to make it, guess what, we are not going to have a restaurant any more, same goes for any business I have.
We are using trainers that charge $30 bucks a day. How do they do it? They do a lot of the work you are talking about hiring others to do. Todd Pletcher can have 3 horses to a groom, not in my world. They get on horses themselves to work, or they only pay $9-10 bucks for someone to. You think $15 bucks a day is going to last in this economy, how do you justify some cowboy getting 150 200 bucks a day for 4 hours of work.
Adjustments are needed in the industry.
We ship to Chicago, Hoosier, Ky, Oaklawn at $250 round trip to race. They have grooms handling 10 horses a day. They all work their butts off, but they have good horses and they are making a living. I just think people need to start being realistic, the way of doing things in the past is over, and those that are still going to be in the business as a trainer or owner are going to have to adapt to the new economics we face. You can be stubborn and say I have to get $50 a day and I am not making any money even, I think for many what you are saying is you need to find a new occupation, you are going to have a difficult time in the years ahead finding people to facilitate you unless you find a better way of doing things.

[Jane]

Thirty dollars a day??? That's shocking! I can't imagine getting out of bed at 4:30 in the morning, driving to the track, feeding your horse, galloping your horse then walking it, mucking the stall, paying for waste removal, bedding the stall, feeding the horse lunch, doing the horse up in whatever was required, feeding the horse dinner again and then only charging you 30 bucks. I'm lucky to get broodmare care for that price.

[Monmouth Matt]

Hi St Louis........ In my earlier post, I used the $70 figure and typed day rate....in reality that is the fugure I use for my monthly nut incl. meds....shoes...transport...vet etc.. My goal, which I use to budget, is $2100. per horse per month while in training and the figure is normally very close.... keep in mind that very few horses race 12 months a year, so to multiply that figure out by a flat 12 can be bit misleading.

The purse structure in NY...NJ...PA make this business plan very workable. It would be tough to make the numbers work in Fl. and I no longer race in the winter there. My bread and butter 10k-20k claims have to run for peanuts and I stopped GP 3 years ago.... the winter becomes a lay-up time for any horses I have @ $23 a day. In the end, it still comes down to myself and trainer making intelligent claims and accasionally getting lucky on a shake!

My point earlier was primarily about putting together an approach to selecting a quality trainer. I realize it sounds like alot of work, but you have to be familiar with and knowledgeable about your "partner" and I don't think enough owners are.

[st. louis kid]

You sound like a man with a plan Matt. I think you are typical of todays owner, you have to have a sharp pencil and trainers are going to have to show you how to make it work or you move on. You are right about most horses don't race or are not in training all 12 months, we can lay up for $500-600 a month at the farm. I see those purses on inter-track in Penn., they sure look juicy and competition is good but not unbeatable, wish it wasn't quite so far. Best of luck to you.