Training Day rates

[karenkarenn]

Madelyn, I am not talking about my filly in Utah . I am talking about my other horse that is in training in Ca. And yes, I stand behind what I said before just because you might pay 100 a day doesn't mean that you are going to get quality care.
Thanks...

[ageecee]

[quote="pfrsue"][quote="madelyn"]ex rider is $15 per ride[/quote]

Slightly off topic, but out of curiosity, how many horses on average will an exercise rider work during a normal day?[/quote]





5-10

[madelyn]

Could have 10 or more depends. Some riders work at a track early am and then shift to a training center in the afternoon, so they double up.

[zinn21]

The only area to cut cost without compromising the horse is labor. You can't cut the feed. If you do your are not going to be competitive. Outfits where the trainer gallops his own horses and gets underneath them are the ones that can cut costs. So husband and wife galloping and grooming 12 head can cut their rate but let's face it, your spreading things thin and you will likely miss some things..

[valjoe]

Hi Valjoe,

I don't agree with you on that one Madelyn. Actually quite the opposite in many cases. A big trainer with 50 to 100 horses in training seldom sees those horses, much less has hands on,

griff

Griff you're so wrong about this

Can you expand on your thought - why you disagree with Griff?

Regards,

Pete

Hi Pete,

Madelyn pretty much covered it, I will add from my experience being stabled in the same barns with big trainers and small barns and have seen the difference, I've seen people being ripped off by small trainers when horses get hurt and shouldn't be at track but trainer needs the money, in one particular case the horse bowed and the owner who used to come on the weekends was told that the horse got sore feet from working hard during the week while in fact the horse didn't even get out of the stall. That is very unlikely to happen with a big outfit for the simple reason they usually have shortage of stalls and don't depend on that.
Also exercise riders, the good ones are hired by big outfits and are not cheap,and they are probably the most important part in training race horses.
To me a trainer that can't afford to hire help and have to muck stalls to get by for whatever reason would be a red light.

[valjoe]

The only area to cut cost without compromising the horse is labor. You can't cut the feed. If you do your are not going to be competitive. Outfits where the trainer gallops his own horses and gets underneath them are the ones that can cut costs. So husband and wife galloping and grooming 12 head can cut their rate but let's face it, your spreading things thin and you will likely miss some things..

Zin21

I've seen people doing it and I've done it myself when I trained my own horses,but even if you you do it yourself it's an extra labor that should be calculated in your expense.

[doublete]

This area in MD day rates are $50-75 a day. I'm on the low end, and know certain high percentage trainers are at $65 and 75. Both of those trainers I"ve improved horses off of. So take that for what it is worth.

WV charles town the day rates are lower, 35-60.

[photofinish]

FWIW, where I am whole oats are at #26/100 and decent alfalfa is at $420/ton. Good grass (timothy/orchard grass) is almost $500/ton and bermuda grass ("eh") is at $450/ton. Beet pulp, wich I use alot of, is $749/ton. We can still get gallop boys for $10/mount and my grooms get $16/day/head (roughly) plus stakes for wins, that owners seldom give anymore.

I last averaged out my cost/day/horse back in September, but not much has changed price-wise since then, and I came out to $42.89/horse/day. That is cooking oats 2x a day and mixing feed from the ground up every horse, every feeding, with no complete feeds - added labor for me, but cheaper than the sweet feeds. I have to figure in stall rent at a training center as well, but that is only $3.50/stall/day right now. Of course, with different supplements, babies who go 6 days a week vs older horses who pony some (by myself) and gallop a bit less, that is averaged across the stable. I did not figure in the expenses of feeding and bedding and stabling my pony into the overall, either. I have alot of young horse who train for 4-6 months before ever starting, too. No % for a long time there.

I cannot fathom how I could do right by my horses and clear $13.95 a day on day rate...

[stlouiskid]

Every trainer I have ever talked with says the same thing. Oh, I don't make anything off the day rates, only way I make any money is if the horse wins.
Then explain this to me. Many times I have inquired to trainers about purchasing a horse they train, usually broodmares who need to be done racing and have value in the breeding shed. Horses who are racing in lower claiming levels and not earning much purse money.
Almost every time you meet great resistance from the trainers. Many will not even contact the owner about the purchase offer. They simply do not want to lose these horses from their barns. Which always made me wonder, if they are not making any money off the day rate, why would they care if the owner sold the horse?

[madelyn]

Madelyn, I am not talking about my filly in Utah . I am talking about my other horse that is in training in Ca. And yes, I stand behind what I said before just because you might pay 100 a day doesn't mean that you are going to get quality care.
Thanks...

I am not arguing at all with that. I am saying that at flat cost it is $35-45 a day depending on if the trainer gallops or has "unpaid" assistance, BUT BELOW THAT the horse will not get what it needs. I have seen $35-45 shedrows that look awesome with horses all well cared for, and have also seen $60+ where they all look like crap.

[TJ]

Madelyn, I am not talking about my filly in Utah . I am talking about my other horse that is in training in Ca. And yes, I stand behind what I said before just because you might pay 100 a day doesn't mean that you are going to get quality care.
Thanks...

I am not arguing at all with that. I am saying that at flat cost it is $35-45 a day depending on if the trainer gallops or has "unpaid" assistance, BUT BELOW THAT the horse will not get what it needs. I have seen $35-45 shedrows that look awesome with horses all well cared for, and have also seen $60+ where they all look like crap.

Hi Madelyn,
You are absolutely right about that...those awesome looking shedrows doing the job for $35-45 are either there all day long working on them doing it all by themselves....or they are spending their own money on these horses to have good help there with them. Something no one has mentioned and it's a major reason for small trainers going under, is workmans comp. A small trainer has to give up his commission on the first $30-50,000 worth of purses earned by his stable every year just to pay for that...making it that much harder to survive on $35-45 a day. TJ

[zinn21]

valjoe wrote:

I've seen people doing it and I've done it myself when I trained my own horses,but even if you you do it yourself it's an extra labor that should be calculated in your expense.

Agreed but it is a way that a number of small trainers cut costs for the owner.

Some trainers also haul their own feed. When I trained, I used to go to feed places and cut my costs for grain in half. Hay by about one third.

[Barcaldine]

Frances Henderson.

[photofinish]

valjoe wrote:


Some trainers also haul their own feed. When I trained, I used to go to feed places and cut my costs for grain in half. Hay by about one third.

I could not even imagine having to pay at-the-track prices for feed/hay right now! The prices I quoted in my post above are what we are paying going out to pick up feed/hay, it is more at the track on the delivery schedule.

[Pete]

Hi All,

This thread began with a question about day rates in PA and though the replies have moved afield I believe that there's a good dialog that has ensued.

Daily rates should give trainers a consistent and small profit and (perhaps more important) a cash flow.
If a trainer isn't making anything (or losing) on their day rate then they're priced too low, not controlling their expenses or making money elsewhere.

Beyond the day rate there are many other potential charges that the owners need to be aware of and trainers may make a profit on them.
For example, a (modest) markup on supplements is acceptable but a kick-back on farrier charges isn't (to me certainly).

There's so much more involved in selecting a trainer than the day rate.

I've been holding back writing more, and I could write a book on this subject alone, but I believe this should be a topic unto itself however I'll add the following:

1 - The day rate alone is not a sufficient basis to hire a trainer.
2 - Day rates are not the only charges that an owner must assume. Understand all charges that you may be responsible for.
3 - Advice about trainers and their rates, etc., are specific to each circumstance that may or may not correspond to your needs as an owner. To illustrate, Bob Baffert is hired to squeeze the lemon hard and early and maximize residual value. This is his mandate and he's good at it but he could be entirely wrong for you and your horse. Understand your trainer's ambitions and be certain that they match yours!

A trainer checklist could begin (and not be limited to) with this order:
1 - Integrity
2 - Honesty (in this business, honesty without integrity can be a mess)
3 - Communication
4 - Ability
5 - Price
6 - Personality

Regards,

Pete