In line breeding circles, combining half and full siblings is usually is a good thing. However, it seems to me that this combination does not seem to work well in pedigrees. Is this a reality or just my perception? If it is a reality, anybody have any explanations? Any comments appreciated.
Rick
His Majesty/Graustark
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
I have seen it commented on before that this is not particularly favorable, and the reason given is that His Majesty and Graustark are very similar in genetic aptitude, with both tilted strongly towards stamina. Inbreeding through brothers or sons of the same sire seems to work better when the two are of constrasting aptitudes (one a miler and one a stayer, for instance) -- perhaps because this may capture a wider variety of the inbred ancestor's desirable genes, always assuming you are inbreeding through good animals. With His Majesty/Graustark, another factor may be that such a pedigree may be too weighted towards stamina to have much chance in the speed-happy American scene.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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Hi
As with anything there are exceptions. G1 SW Sir Beaufort, and Champion Panamanian Stayer, Viva Pancho, reflect the staying qualities mentioned by Mahubah. Sir Beaufort has His Majesty and Graustark 2x4 through Key To The Mint and Pleasant Colony, and Viva Pancho has the two 4x3 through females. An exception occurs with Champion Sprinter, Mozart, who has the brothers 3x3 through females. There have been other moderate successes, but no other superstars to my knowledge.
Bill
As with anything there are exceptions. G1 SW Sir Beaufort, and Champion Panamanian Stayer, Viva Pancho, reflect the staying qualities mentioned by Mahubah. Sir Beaufort has His Majesty and Graustark 2x4 through Key To The Mint and Pleasant Colony, and Viva Pancho has the two 4x3 through females. An exception occurs with Champion Sprinter, Mozart, who has the brothers 3x3 through females. There have been other moderate successes, but no other superstars to my knowledge.
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
Inbreeding to full brothers *Sir Gallahad III and *Bull Dog was quite successful in the 1940-1960 period. Not surprisingly, broodmares containing this cross often became very prolific at stud as well.
Other successful pairings in the 20th century include brothers Pharos/Fairway; *Pharamond II/*Sickle; and 3/4 brothers *Nasrullah/*Royal Charger. All are Phalaris line stallions.
Other successful pairings in the 20th century include brothers Pharos/Fairway; *Pharamond II/*Sickle; and 3/4 brothers *Nasrullah/*Royal Charger. All are Phalaris line stallions.
Rick,
My thoughts are that *Bull Dog and *Sir Gallahad III were bred to entirely different types of mares at Coldstream Stud and Claiborne Farm, respectively. This difference alone, IMO, accounts for the significant difference in the brothers' sire records. Coldstream syndicated *Bull Dog to mostly commercial breeders, and these mares differed greatly from the mares sent to *Sir Gallahad III by the small syndicate which owned him. Hancock and Woodward bred for classic distances, and their broodmare band reflected this bias. Hence, his foals naturally preferred longer distances. It may be this reason that *Sir Gallahad III is generally considered a failure as a sire of sires. His one son who did achieve good results at stud was Roman, a very fast sprinter from a fast family. As I recall, Roman sired about 37 stakes winners and was perennially the leading 2yo sire.
When bred to the inbred Rose Leaves, *Bull Dog produced Bull Lea, a good 8-9 furlong horse who was probably 5 lbs off the best of his generation. Yet he became one of America's best sires of all time. He certainly was *Bull Dog's best son at stud, but was by no means the only successful one.
*Sir Gallahad III was a superior racehorse to *Bull Dog; his best win was at 7 furlongs over the great *Epinard, and he competed at the highest levels of French racing up to 10 furlongs. *Bull Dog was a minor stakes winner at a middle distance. Yet, as stallions, it is clear that *Bull Dog was the superior sire to *Sir Gallahad III. Even though he was bred to inferior mares his AEI was greater than *Sir Gallahad's.
That's my take on it.
My thoughts are that *Bull Dog and *Sir Gallahad III were bred to entirely different types of mares at Coldstream Stud and Claiborne Farm, respectively. This difference alone, IMO, accounts for the significant difference in the brothers' sire records. Coldstream syndicated *Bull Dog to mostly commercial breeders, and these mares differed greatly from the mares sent to *Sir Gallahad III by the small syndicate which owned him. Hancock and Woodward bred for classic distances, and their broodmare band reflected this bias. Hence, his foals naturally preferred longer distances. It may be this reason that *Sir Gallahad III is generally considered a failure as a sire of sires. His one son who did achieve good results at stud was Roman, a very fast sprinter from a fast family. As I recall, Roman sired about 37 stakes winners and was perennially the leading 2yo sire.
When bred to the inbred Rose Leaves, *Bull Dog produced Bull Lea, a good 8-9 furlong horse who was probably 5 lbs off the best of his generation. Yet he became one of America's best sires of all time. He certainly was *Bull Dog's best son at stud, but was by no means the only successful one.
*Sir Gallahad III was a superior racehorse to *Bull Dog; his best win was at 7 furlongs over the great *Epinard, and he competed at the highest levels of French racing up to 10 furlongs. *Bull Dog was a minor stakes winner at a middle distance. Yet, as stallions, it is clear that *Bull Dog was the superior sire to *Sir Gallahad III. Even though he was bred to inferior mares his AEI was greater than *Sir Gallahad's.
That's my take on it.
Hi Everyone,
I have usually found that in intensely inbred individuals the variables are usually in the mares. Like probably a few of you I have a mare who is intensely inbred to Domino. Her grand dam is 5X5 High Time. The pedigree of High Time shows how they successfully produced good horses out of inbreeding.
One thing more that inbreeding does is not only doubles up on ancestors but also limits the number of ancestors an individual has. This is the strength and weakness of inbreeding.
EK
I have usually found that in intensely inbred individuals the variables are usually in the mares. Like probably a few of you I have a mare who is intensely inbred to Domino. Her grand dam is 5X5 High Time. The pedigree of High Time shows how they successfully produced good horses out of inbreeding.
One thing more that inbreeding does is not only doubles up on ancestors but also limits the number of ancestors an individual has. This is the strength and weakness of inbreeding.
EK
High Time himself was a pretty good example of the strengths and dangers of intense inbreeding. He had blistering speed himself, but also had iffy legs and was, I believe, a bleeder, which probably accounted for his habit of stopping abruptly in competition. Colonel Phil Chinn used to say that High Time was the only horse he had ever seen who could come into the home straight leading by 15 lengths and end up losing the race by 80. High Time's sole lifetime victory was in the Hudson Stakes. He started out with pretty poor mares, but after the appearance of champion Sarazen got better mates and all told was quite a good sire and broodmare sire. Interestingly, the matings that produced High Time and Sarazen were planned by Elizabeth Daingerfield, whose other credits included managing the first part of Man o' War's stud career. Her father, Major Daingerfield, was James R. Keene's farm manager and oversaw Commando's stud career -- Ultimus was, I believe the last foal sired by Commando, and was one of two Commando sons inbred 2x2 to Domino. The other was Hippodrome, a much less successful sire found in pedigrees primarily through his daughters Bellisario and Shad Fly.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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louis finochio
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Full Siblings
If full siblings were that easy to make their mark in the breeding shed, every breeder would do the same. Mother nature doesent work that way, you can breed Somethingroyal to Bold Ruler many times and mother nature will only give you one Secretariat. Full siblings that breed the goods are few and far between. The breeding side of the TB game is where you must do your homework before you reap the harvest.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Actually, Somethingroyal did have 3 foals by Bold Ruler. One, of course, we all know about. 
The Bride (1969) couldn't run a lick but was a nice broodie, throwing a two-time group 2 winner in Argentina and another SW. Syrian Sea (1965) was among the leading juvenile fillies of her year, her victories including the Selima Stakes (then considered an event with championship implications), and she later produced multiple G2 winner Alada, whose granddaughter Saratoga Dew was champion 3yo filly in 1992. Pretty nice results all around, even if Secretariat's older sisters weren't in his league as runners.
The Bride (1969) couldn't run a lick but was a nice broodie, throwing a two-time group 2 winner in Argentina and another SW. Syrian Sea (1965) was among the leading juvenile fillies of her year, her victories including the Selima Stakes (then considered an event with championship implications), and she later produced multiple G2 winner Alada, whose granddaughter Saratoga Dew was champion 3yo filly in 1992. Pretty nice results all around, even if Secretariat's older sisters weren't in his league as runners."A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Oh, speaking of Syrian Sea, take a look at the pedigree of Roguelet's pride and joy, her stallion Indy Mood -- he has Secretariat and Syrian Sea 3x3.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Hi All,
If you narrow down inbreeding to Graustark and His Majesty through HM's best son Pleasant Colony and Graustark's best daughter Glowing Tribute; you find they've already combined in Canadian Champion Grass Mare Hero's Love from few examples. The advantage of getting full siblings is amplified powerfully when they comes thrugh the best source of each full sibling.
On the subject of stamina vs. speed, we find inbreeding 3x3 (that's about as close as it gets) to His Majesty through Pleasant Colony and Danehill has worked in GI Australian sprinter Keeper.
In "The Kentucky Thoroughbred", by Kent Hollingsworth, there's a very interesting chapter on Colonel Phill T. Chinn that has him talking about High Time.
BTW, a great post by Michael.
-llbean
If you narrow down inbreeding to Graustark and His Majesty through HM's best son Pleasant Colony and Graustark's best daughter Glowing Tribute; you find they've already combined in Canadian Champion Grass Mare Hero's Love from few examples. The advantage of getting full siblings is amplified powerfully when they comes thrugh the best source of each full sibling.
On the subject of stamina vs. speed, we find inbreeding 3x3 (that's about as close as it gets) to His Majesty through Pleasant Colony and Danehill has worked in GI Australian sprinter Keeper.
In "The Kentucky Thoroughbred", by Kent Hollingsworth, there's a very interesting chapter on Colonel Phill T. Chinn that has him talking about High Time.
BTW, a great post by Michael.
-llbean
Hallo,
here in Germany raced the Americanbred colt, but German owned Royal Dragon (by Danehill) bred in 1998. He is inbred to HisMajesty/Graustark 3x3 and his sire Danehill is similar inbred 3x3 to Natalma. So he is another example of close inbreeding. He raced from 2 - 5 years over the distance of 8 - 10 furlongs with 5 wins. He stands as stallion at the "Gestut Rottgen" near by Cologne.
At the moment a 2 yearold colt named Fabioso started his racing career and he is inbred 2x2 to Highest Honor. Highest Honour himself is heavily linebred to the Lady Josehine family. So far I saw he started 6 times with 1 win and 2 placings. I added in his ped to pedquery.
An older example of very close inbreeding is the ped of the German colt Gradivo (by Ladro). After his racing days were over, he was sent to Czechslovakia.
Germanbreeders still not shy away from those kind of breeding, but the know of the dangers, too.
Best regards, Bettina
here in Germany raced the Americanbred colt, but German owned Royal Dragon (by Danehill) bred in 1998. He is inbred to HisMajesty/Graustark 3x3 and his sire Danehill is similar inbred 3x3 to Natalma. So he is another example of close inbreeding. He raced from 2 - 5 years over the distance of 8 - 10 furlongs with 5 wins. He stands as stallion at the "Gestut Rottgen" near by Cologne.
At the moment a 2 yearold colt named Fabioso started his racing career and he is inbred 2x2 to Highest Honor. Highest Honour himself is heavily linebred to the Lady Josehine family. So far I saw he started 6 times with 1 win and 2 placings. I added in his ped to pedquery.
An older example of very close inbreeding is the ped of the German colt Gradivo (by Ladro). After his racing days were over, he was sent to Czechslovakia.
Germanbreeders still not shy away from those kind of breeding, but the know of the dangers, too.
Best regards, Bettina