Flame Thrower

[fastappy]

B N D Thoroughbreds purchases Flame Thrower to stand in the Golden State. [b] http://www.ctba.com/[/b] What's the word on this handsom son of Saint Ballado? I've got his stats, how about first hand knowledge on his foals conformation, etc.

[CA Michael]

The few I've seen are flashy, but the trainers I've spoken with say they are soft.

This outfit specializes in bringing eastern failures to the west coast, where they continue to fail at stud. Expect a HUGE advertising campaign which focuses on his race record (7 starts in 2 years) and NOT his sire record of two crops, no stakes winners.

Saint Ballado, for all his singular success, is thus far only spotty as a sire of sires. Metropolitan Mile H.-G1 winner Yankee Victor, from a superior female family, has been very disappointing at stud. I believe he was sold to Korea or Turkey recently for stud duty. Captain Bodgit, 2nd in the KY Derby, was shuffled off to Alberta, Canada after several years in the U.S.

Flame Thrower's distaff side is even more troubling. It's a strictly Ohio-performing family, with no placings in stakes outside of Ohio in the first six dams. Not the stuff of which good stallions are made.

Cloverleaf Farms in Florida, which stood Flame Thrower since he went to stud, is a very sharp outfit. They don't let good ones get away. California breeders should have learned that lesson from Comic Strip (Lane's End Farm), Tinners Way (Juddmonte) , Houston (Walmac), and Future Storm (Cloverleaf), and many other castoffs. The boys at those farms are a lot sharper than most here in California, sorry to say.

[fastappy]

Michael thanks for the input on Flame Thrower. Looking at the Florida Leading Sires List I see two higher ranked Saint Ballado stallions (Both with 5 crops vs Flame Throwers 4);
[b]Current year standings thru 09/18/06[/b]

#8 Sweetsouthernsaint with 79 starters, 53 winners, earnings $1,502,114
19% wins - 26% Placings - AEI 2.14 vs CI 1.01 - Avg earning per starter of $26,353 - (4% SW & 3% SP Lifetime) Avg winning distance 7.27 F

#9 Straightman with 93 starters, 45 winners, earnings of $1,498,381
14% wins, 20% Placings - AEI 1.22 vs CI 1.22 - Avg earning per starter of $16,112 - (1% SW & 3% SP Lifetime) Avg winning distance 6.25

#35 Flame Thrower with 24 starters, 14 winners, earnings of $508,755
18% wins, 35% Placings - AEI 1.65 vs CI 1.01 - Avg. earnings per starter of $21,198 - (0% SW & 4% SP Lifetime) Avg winning Dist. 6.07

All of Flame Throwers Stakes Placings were by two year olds going 5-6 Furlongs.

My observations lead me to believe Flame Thrower has good potential for success in California because he is apparently a precocious speed sire, his numbers are very respectable especially when considering he has moved up the foals from mares he's received.

Greeley's Flame (SP) sold for $100,000 OBSMAR Two Year old
Tootsie's Flame (SP) sold for $52,000 " "
Firemist (MSW) sold for $125,00 " "

The limited starters and his improvement up to the current year indicates to me that it is too early to jump ship on this stallion. Florida having two Saint Ballado's higher up on the sires list makes it challenging in terms of getting a bigger and better book of mares, especially at $6,500.

I am forewarned regarding St. Ballado and his disappointing sons, Flame Thrower's dam side, and the legacy of California snapping up Kentucky & Florida rejects. I see far more upside to Flame Thrower at this juncture, and hopefully he will be an assest to California breeders.

Flame Thrower looks awesome in the B.H. (side profile) photo, but I'll have to see him first hand.

[FOS]

hi CA Michael

Cloverleaf Farms in Florida, which stood Flame Thrower since he went to stud, is a very sharp outfit.

FACT is that Flame Thrower did NOT start his stud career at Cloverleaf. He started at Stoneriggs Farm, then was moved to Cloverleaf. I didn't view it as a very "sharp" (your word) decision by Cloverleaf to add him to their stallion roster.

They (Cloverleaf) don't let good ones get away.

If you 'd be so kind, please share with me which "good ones" they retained.

I wish Cloverleaf the best, but when I consider their stallions and sires...the word disappointing comes to mind.

Respectfully

[CA Michael]

I guess when I hear terms like 'promising young sire' I expect more than a stallion who has not sired a single stakes winner in two crops to race, nor any graded performers. This is especially true of a horse, any horse, who was himself precocious, and was managed by a farm which develops stallions which can compete in the 'pop-and-go' Florida market.

Flame Thrower certainly fits this profile, along with many other studs who are finding new homes right now.

If Flame Thrower's statistics belonged to another young horse, let's take Sligo Bay as an example, I wouldn't be nearly as down on him. One wouldn't reasonably expect that kind of a late maturing horse to sire early babies. But because Flame Thrower was a one-dimensional 2yo sprinter, and hasn't sired anything close to a good horse with two crops to race, we can't reasonably expect his stud career to soar as his foals mature.

As far as Flame Thrower's sale statistics, one can see why they were in some demand in his first and second years. They are flashy and Flame Thrower was not disproven yet. There's a Flame Thrower in the upcoming Barretts sale that I hear is much in the same vein. But unless FT comes up with a good horse fairly soon, buyers will quickly dismiss him as another flash.

[fastappy]

Michael, I hear you loud and clear, and I think we all benefit (I certainly do) hearing the pros & cons of a particular sire or breeding. My observation is basically this stallion has only gotten 109 mares in 4 crops and has only 29 starters with 17 winners. I am not defending his performance per se but his book of mares CI at 1.05 and few opportunities leads me to believe the jury is still out on this one.

Maybe I'm wrong about this guy and time will tell. In the meantime.... I like that horse! In any case thanks for the input, it's always informative to get divergent views, and certainly the legacy of California's imports speaks volumes.

[fastappy]

Michael, I hear you loud and clear, and I think we all benefit (I certainly do) hearing the pros & cons of a particular sire or breeding. My observation is basically this stallion has only gotten 109 mares in 4 crops and has only 29 starters with 17 winners. I am not defending his performance per se but his book of mares CI at 1.05 and few opportunities leads me to believe the jury is still out on this one.

Maybe I'm wrong about this guy and time will tell. In the meantime.... I like that horse! In any case thanks for the input, it's always informative to get divergent views, and certainly the legacy of California's imports speaks volumes.

[CA Michael]

Jon,

I sure agree with you that divergent viewpoints are desirable. Every horse has its plusses and minusses, and a shrewd horseman will take them all into account in his decision making.

In the next few months we'll see a lot more horses like Flame Thrower being reshuffled around the country. Horses like him are 'marked down for quick sale' and at the $25-$50,000 price level, buyers can still make a little hay while the sun shines.

[fastappy]

Michael, ..... as sure as the swallows return to Capistrano.

I am going to test your theory on the inbreeding to Terlingua, involving Pioneering. His crops have earned over 3 million the past two years and Overbrook tells me he got 125 mares this year w/88% in foal.

If anyone knows a good boarding facility in the vicinity of Overbrook I would appreciate it.

[CA Michael]

That's very exciting news, Jon, although I'm sure I was not the first person to suggest inbreeding to Terlingua. I assume the lucky mare is by Tabasco Cat???

The only caution I would offer is that Pioneering is not a robust, full-back type of stallion; thus whoever you breed to him should probably be a more muscular, typey kind of mare.

Best of luck and keep me informed.