Wound/Scar Tissue/Placenta PICS POSTED!!!!!!

[Karie]

Rather than start a new thread I figured I would update this old one!
http://www.rkthoroughbreds.com/beatthedeadline.htm________________________________________

Has anyone heard of or done this?
My poor little 9 month old filly that had all the issues when she was
born last year (dummy foal, septic.. etc) was found Thursday morning at
the feed tub with a grossly cut up HUGE left rear ankle. Its bad. She
had already lost all the skin on this leg last year and it was all
regrown over the past few months. Well.. something bad happened we are
not sure what. We have searched the pasture and found nothing and the
other 8 fillies are fine.
Ok, the real question is about scar tissue. She already has scar tissue
from this wound from before. The vet took one look at her leg.. sighed
and told me she will never race :(... He said there is going to be too
much scar tissue on this ankle for the joint to have enough flexion to
race. I had planned on taking this filly to a sale, but that wont
happen now. So I am still hoping that we can race her ourselves.
The farm managers said that they heard of something that will help her.
They want to take parts of a foal placenta and put them on the wound.
They said it will heal the scar tissue. They healed a dog this way
before (with a dog placenta) Have any of you ever heard of this before?
I searched on the (limited access) internet at work and couldn't find
anything.. We have tons of mares foaling this season.. at least 24 so
there will be tons of placenta's available. One mare waxed over today!! Its freezing rain and COLD so its the perfect night to foal!
My questions are.. this is an open wound.. wont that help grow an
infection? and should the filly be on antibiotics when we are doing
this? She is on Penicillin 20cc's 2 times a day for three days then
20cc's once daily for 5 more day. I haven't discussed this with my vet
yet since I changed farms and have only used this new vet once so far.
Our first mare should be foaling any day now.. so I really am not sure
what to do!

This is the only link I can find with a story about this. Its a great link, but I question stapling or superglue to hold it on? Cant it be bandaged in place?
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/illnesses_injuries/eqamnion03/

If anyone knows of a better board to post this question on please let
me know or cross post it for me.

anyone with any information contact me at [email protected][url][/url]

[Regal13]

Well, after reading the article from the link that you supplied, it sounds like you could go ahead and at least collect, clean and freeze the amnion from the mare that's about to foal that way you have it regardless of what you decide to do... The author of that article used an amnion that had been frozen for a year!! Might be worth having around just in case anyway...

[KamiBrooks]

another thing you might research is using "sugardine" on the injury. It is sugar and betadine. If you don't find a lot under horses, try burn victims.

[Roguelet]

I know that placentas and cord blood are amazing healing resources. I don't have details on using a placenta in this way, but it doesn't surprise me one bit to hear that it has been used and has been successful.

[Mood Swings]

Does your filly have proud flesh developing? I've heard of equine amnion being used to prevent the growth of proud flesh.
"It keeps the surface of the wound moist and warm as oxygen passively diffuses through it. Gluing amnion to the intact skin surrounding a wound is the simplest way to anchor it in place. It can also be positioned under a bandage." Believe it or not you could also look to "pig bladder" It is called Extracellular matrix (ECM) , actually it is derived from pig bladders and undergoes a process to remove cellular material and antigenic components so that the horse does not identify the ECM as a foreign substance. Apparently it is very helpful for healing sizeable wounds. I am sure any specialty procedure will need to be performed at a surgical clinic in order to increase your odds, there are a number of other options as well such as silicone-gel dressings and skin grafting. IMO I would consult with a surgeon at least to hear their suggestions and you could inquire about the sugardine (as it waaaay cheaper) etc because the surgeon will better know your filly's chances. I have used sugardine in many situations with much success. Good Luck with her, let us know how it turns out

[Karie]

proud flesh.. well not yet, but scar tissue yes, from the previous issue she had some.. The thing that I was told was that the Aminon will heal scar tissue also.. If there is the scar tissue she has NO CHANCE at being a racehorse. I am trying to at least give her ankle the time and work it deserves so that she is comfortable and has proper movement- race horse or not
I will look up the other stuff when i have the time. (cranky baby took all my time today!)
This filly was at Michigan State University.. they could give me no ideas on how to handle this wound other than the bandaging it and cleaning it.
Its pretty much the same wound she had before. Its gross!

I will take pictures and post them, I will take some tomorrow when I change the bandage.
We are using DRAW on it now, per the vet...
I have never used or heard of draw before this injury.

[xfactor fan]

Knowing nothing about this process--like to say that up front-- Both placenta and amniotic fluid are potent sources of embryonic stem cells. This could work as a passive transfer of stem cells that then go on and become healthy tissue.

Just a guess.

[Karie]

We finally got a halfway clean placenta and cut it up and prepared it. We are now on our second dressing and it seems to be working well so far.
I took a before picture and every week or so will take another picture.
I will post these on my website eventually and we will see how it goes and how well it works!
I am excited about trying it!

[Karie]

http://www.rkthoroughbreds.com/beatthedeadline.htm

It doesn't look much better to me so far.
The tissue and skin around the wound looks pick and healthier so far, but not fure about the actual wound.

[jumper77]

I read this thread before but didn't have anything useful to contribute. I still don't, but I do have what may be a dumb question; what caused the skin to fall off in the first place?

[madelyn]

I have to agree with your vet, this filly will never race. You would only be throwing money away to put her in training. She might train well up to the point of having to breeze, but then the scar tissue will prevent that limb from being equal to the others and riders will report back that she feels like she is falling apart. I had a filly with a cut across her hock, no bone involved, but even though we did everything possible, and it healed leaving only a quarter size scar, she could not extend the leg enough to hit racing speed. I learned the hard way.

[EquusRVT2]

I actually see quite a bit of progress in the new photos- it's shrinking, slowly, but it's shrinking and the edges look great.

Given her previous injury, and now this one, I wonder if there wasn't an inherent weakness or leftover infection from the furst healing, and it sort of caused the sloughing on this next time.

IMHO, stay on antibiotics, and if you're not already, do some good old fashioned water therapy, and then let it dry out for an hour or two (standing in the crossties preferably) before re-bandaging. These type of things start to really need air to help dry out, then shrink way down.

Also, you can probably start to do the placenta every other or every third day, with something simple like Vitamin E oil or aloe in between. That way it doesn't become desensitized to the good stuff. Good luck- never say never, it looks quite superficial really, but you won't know till she gets there.

[kezeli]

I had a 3 year old colt in Mi that was a dummy foal that got urine burn in both back legs, looked just like yours, owner sent him to train and he got chips to go with all the proud flesh and of course never raced. This colt was junk from the git and nasthy to boot but I got to fight with him daily to bandage that mess

[amanda1]

I read on your site that she was a dummy foal and in parenthesis you had written "no suck reflex". Now this has nothing to do with the wound she has, but a dummy foal is a foal that has had the supply of oxygen to the brain cut off for a period of time during foaling. Is this what happened and as a result she did not have a suck reflex????

[TrueColours]

HI Karie - poor girl!

Here is what I had sent to me many year ago with regards to amnion wraps and *touch wood* I have thankfuly not had to use it yet

Good luck!

Hi Donna,

Here is how we use amnion wraps at the equine clinic where I work. First
off, we obtain amnion either through our clients' mares that we induce or my
mares that I can obtain the amnion from before it gets trashed. Although
we put it through a disinfecting process we like to start with the cleanest
ones we can. First we clean the amnion in lactated ringers, then put it
into several ob gloves with a litre of lactated ringers , about 5-6 cc's
gentocin and about 100 cc's of dmso. Let it sit overnight, or if you know
you won't get to it the next day, go ahead and freeze it. Then I rinse it
again in lactated ringers and cut into pieces about 4 inches sqaure and
freeze. You can cut it into any size desired, it's just that most of the
leg injuries with the proud flesh average need that size or smaller. Amion
is kept frozen, only thawed just before use. "Leftovers" can be refrozen,
but don't leave unfrozen very long.
We use 3 inch elastikon , and either a telfa ( 3 x 5 non-stick sterile pad)
or surgipad ( 5 x 9 non-stick sterile pad.), depending on how big the
injury is. We usually make a sandwich of one telfa or sxpad with thuja
ointment on one side. Then take another pad and put the amnion on it.
Sandwich should go in this order---amnion directly next to wound--thuja pad
right over amion pad. Then we wrap it with the elastikon, making sure that
you overlap the elastikon by covering the little red line that bisects the
elastikon. You don't want any gaps in the wrap. Cover with elastikon well
above and well below wound so as to apply an evenly spaced wrap. We leave
these on up to 14 days, depending on how the horse wears it. Don't let it
get muddy, etc, as any wrap serves as a wick when wet.
We have used these wraps for a dozen or so years with great success. They
work and are low maintenance and fairly inexpensive.
Hope this helps some.
Carolyn

PS With a hock wrap with elastikon you may need to used 2 rolls with each
wrap. Don't leave the point of the hock out of the wrap--cover it. Just
use a figure eight around the joint--careful not to make it either too tight
nor too loose. Then I'd had my elastikon go about one half down the length
of the cannon bone.