Indiana stallions

[tmqh]

Please forgive me and no bashing as I am fairly new to the the TB industry, but I am seeking advice on stallions standing in Indiana. I have a daughter of Cox's Ridge out of a daughter of Relaunch that I am looking to breed. First, I am curious as to what crosses work on Cox's Ridge daughters and second, any opinions as to proven IN stallions that are reasonably priced. I have looked at Waki Warrior, Radio Daze, Composer and Black Moonshine. Does anyone have opinions on any of these stallions? Black Moonshine and Waki Warrior I believe are on the leading sires list in Indiana. Composer may be as well. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[hpkingjr]

I believe Hunting Hard leads the IN sire list.

[Roguelet]

Here's the Indiana list as of today, the top 25.

Rank Stallion(YOB, Sire)Standing Farm 2007 Stud Fee Runners Winners 2007 Earnings
1 HUNTING HARD (1992, Seeking the Gold), Hickman's Stable $2,000 21 4 $110,939
2 COMPOSER (1992, Easy Goer), Lakeside Farm N/A 12 6 $101,014
3 CROWN AMBASSADOR (1994, Storm Cat), Swifty Farms $5,000 18 5 $88,651
4 BIDDING PROUD (1989, Explosive Bid) Died, 2004 3 1 $40,395
5 DIPLOMATIC JET (1992, Roman Diplomat), Black Diamond Farm N/A 5 2 $33,006
6 FAST FERDIE (1992, Ferdinand) N/A 6 4 $32,541
7 INDY MOOD (1994, A.P. Indy), Atalanta Acres $1,000 5 2 $22,267
8 BLACK MOONSHINE (1987, Mt. Livermore), Ayer Farm $500 4 2 $19,349
9 DAUFUSKIE PIRATE (1993, Marshua's Dancer) N/A 1 1 $16,280
10 PRESIDENTIAL ORDER (1993, Danzig), M.C. Roberts Racing Stable $3,000 9 1 $12,779
11 BARTLETTSUNBRIDLED (1993, Unbridled), Machaus Farm $1,000 5 1 $12,334
12 SWISS TRICK (1984, Damascus) N/A 4 2 $11,476
13 BEST JEST (1988, Best of It), Double Cross Farm $1,000 2 1 $11,264
14 WAKI WARRIOR (1989, Miswaki), Foot Fall Farm $750 5 1 $9,432
15 CAT DOCTOR (1995, Mountain Cat), Quarter Lane Farm $1,500 3 2 $8,993
16 FORT STANTON (1995, Nureyev) N/A 1 1 $7,787
17 DO IT AGAIN DAN (1982, Mr. Leader) Died, 2001 1 1 $7,273
18 JACK LIVINGSTON (1990, Deputy Minister), Hood Thoroughbred Farm N/A 4 0 $7,235
19 AT THE THRESHOLD (1981, Norcliffe) Died, 2002 3 1 $5,876
20 BRAVOURE (1986, Recusant) N/A 2 1 $5,726
21 COLONEL BRADLEY (1994, Rubiano) N/A 2 1 $5,356
22 MORO ORO (1993, Moro), L/J Sorrell Farm $2,500 9 0 $5,330
23 PERSONAL (1994, Private Account), Clearview Equine N/A 3 1 $4,450
24 RADIO DAZE (1988, Damascus) N/A 2 1 $3,963
25 JUNGLE EXPRESS (1990, Jungle Savage) N/A 2 0 $3,423

[Roguelet]

Here are the final rankings (top 25) for 2006 in Indiana:

Leading Sires of Indiana - Results through December 31, 2006
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Stallion(YOB, Sire)Standing Farm 2007 Stud Fee Runners Winners 2006 Earnings
1 HUNTING HARD (1992, Seeking the Gold), Hickman's Stable $2,000 34 21 $585,569
2 CROWN AMBASSADOR (1994, Storm Cat), Swifty Farms $5,000 54 26 $573,507
3 MORO ORO (1993, Moro), L/J Sorrell Farm $2,500 35 20 $420,506
4 PRESIDENTIAL ORDER (1993, Danzig), M.C. Roberts Racing Stable $3,000 38 17 $370,675
5 COMPOSER (1992, Easy Goer), Lakeside Farm N/A 33 14 $290,164
6 WAKI WARRIOR (1989, Miswaki), Foot Fall Farm $750 27 12 $259,329
7 BLACK MOONSHINE (1987, Mt. Livermore), Ayer Farm $500 18 14 $247,668
8 JACQUELYN'S GROOM (1988, Runaway Groom), Calvin C. Prescott Farm N/A 32 13 $230,841
9 CAT POWER (1997, Storm Cat), Horse Country Stables $1,500 34 11 $186,615
10 INDY MOOD (1994, A.P. Indy), Atalanta Acres $1,000 20 11 $167,769
11 JACK LIVINGSTON (1990, Deputy Minister), Hood Thoroughbred Farm N/A 15 5 $158,501
12 SWISS TRICK (1984, Damascus) N/A 21 7 $157,317
13 COMMEMORATE (1981, Exclusive Native), House's Thoroughbreds $2,000 24 11 $132,274
14 BIDDING PROUD (1989, Explosive Bid) Died, 2004 9 4 $126,743
15 SPEEDY CURE (1988, Cure the Blues) Died, 2005 8 5 $99,596
16 DIPLOMATIC JET (1992, Roman Diplomat), Black Diamond Farm N/A 10 3 $89,115
17 OVERNIGHT EXPRESS (1992, Jungle Savage) N/A 8 4 $81,647
18 LAUNCH A LEADER (1986, Relaunch) Died 16 8 $78,565
19 UNBRIDLED MAN (1998, Unbridled), MB Thoroughbreds $1,000 13 4 $75,841
20 AT THE THRESHOLD (1981, Norcliffe) Died, 2002 11 5 $72,804
21 FAST FERDIE (1992, Ferdinand) N/A 11 6 $68,183
22 RADIO DAZE (1988, Damascus) N/A 8 4 $67,854
23 PLENTY CHILLY (1988, It's Freezing), Paradise Farm $1,500 9 4 $57,930
24 FLARE DANCER (1982, Sovereign Dancer) Died, 2005 11 4 $56,480
25 D. C. TENACIOUS (1987, Nijinsky's Secret) N/A 12 2 $53,286

[tmqh]

Thanks for all that great info. Since you are from Indiana, do you have any opinions? If you wish, you can send a private message. I am looking to pick anyone's brains on the TB lineage, especially in IN. I show/train/judge QH's, but the TB's intrigue me.

[Roguelet]

Well, I have a hard time being unbiased about Indiana stallions so I'll leave the pedigree opinions and suggestions to those who can do a better job at it than I can.

My 2 cents on the 4 that you mentioned:

I know absolutely nothing about Composer or Radio Daze. Just looking at the chart, Composer finished last year ranked #5, and he had 42% winners from starters. Radio Daze finished #22 but ended up with 50% winners from starters. Composer had 33 starters to help earn that money last year and Radio Daze had only 8, so avg. earnings per starter for Composer was $8793, and avg. earnings per starter for Radio Daze was $8482... so you have to look at the whole picture. The stallions at the very top typically have the most runners, so you need to look a little bit past that.

Black Moonshine has always intrigued me a bit, although I don't know his connections and have never seen him in person. He ended up last year as number 7, and he had 77% winners per starter and only 18 runners, so his avg. earnings per starter was $13,759. I don't follow his offspring so I don't know if he had one or two really good horses or if they were all relatively evenly successful.

As for Waki Warrior, we bred a mare to him and got a pretty good runner out of it. She is quirky, and trainers I have spoken to say that's a Waki baby characteristic. Apparently if they decide they don't want to do something, you might as well hang the tack up because you're not going to force them. Now, we've only had the one, so I'm going on heresay there. He ended up #6 last year with 44% winners per starter and avg. earnings per starter of $9605.

Playing the numbers game alone, Black Moonshine appears to me to have had the most impressive 2006, but I don't know what has worked in the past with Cox's Ridge so I"ll leave that up to the experts, and I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful with the stallions, but you listed some that I'm just not all that personally familiar with. Good luck, though... and if you don't already have an Indiana Stallion directory for this year, PM me your address and I'll mail you one.

[HiddenEchoFarm]

tmqh -- I defer to Roguelet on all things Indiana, but last summer I posted a request for the same kind of advice, except we had just purchased a Cox's Ridge grandson to stand in Pennsylvania.

The below link is a couple pages of responses I got -- some related to Cox's Ridge, others to the rest of his pedigree. Could help you look at some of those Indiana stallion pedigrees:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... untain+top

[springboro]

Footfall Farms has some excellent new stallions that will be decent regional horses. Goods, by Tale of the Cat, is a gorgeous gray from the Cash Asmussen stable. He was brilliant but didn't race long. If you want speed, check him out. Three starts, a win, 2nd, and third.

Also, Just Plain Joe is another good looking horse. An Alydeed, he's big and covers a lot of ground.

Waki is a good stallion, plain and hardworking.

Chris Chapple also stands the nice Latin Reign, who is just starting out his career in Indiana. He's an El Gran Senor and was a speedy two year old in Europe.

Indy Mood certainly has the pedigree, but I'm not sure about his foals.

Crown Ambassador is the best the state has to offer, but costs the most also.

If slots go in, look for more well bred horses to enter the state. I'm actually looking at a few myself, including a stakes placed son of Polish Numbers.

[Roguelet]

Indy Mood certainly has the pedigree, but I'm not sure about his foals.

I know a little bit about some of his foals. Anything in particular you'd like to know?

I can tell you that in general they are rather late maturing but they stay sound and get better with age. He lost a lot of supporters early on when his babies did nothing as 2YOs, but now that people see how well they can do as they get older, his "following" is beginning to return. They have shown some ability on turf and recently on poly in addition to dirt... they typically prefer a little distance (though he has produced some speedballs as well.)

As an aside, they are typically very athletic, smart, and appealing to the eye, and are having a lot of success in other disciplines; making them easy to place after retirement.

[tmqh]

I have to tell you that everyone on here has been so informative. I took the day off and went stallion looking with a couple of friends. I am extremely impressed with Black Moonshine's foals. They are conformationally correct in every way. They are just exceptional in my opinion. I think that given the fact that he is a proven producer, reasonable stud fee and that Mt. Livermore over Cox's Ridge is proven, my decision is made and I am excited about it. Also, for 20 yrs old, he looked great himself.

[springboro]

Gosh, I was this close to telling you that I thought it was a big mistake to breed to Black Moonshine, based on his age and his lack of earnings at the track. But, research shows:

By BLACK MOONSHINE (1987), winner of 2 races at 3. Half-brother to black
type winner Numeroneattack ($127,804). Sire of 10 small crops, 35 win-
ners, $1,753,543, including Basin Banannie (2 wins/3 starts at 2, 2006,
$37,200, Indiana Stallion S.), black type-placed Sox On Top (15 wins,
$331,520), Moon Shine Time (to 6, 2006, $139,977), Bonnies Pick, etc.

How a stallion in Indiana got earnings of $1 3/4 million from just 35 winners is just astonishing to me. Is that correct? I realize that is total earnings, but what is that per winner?

Also, not to knock the Indiana program, but we all are aware that our mares are not of this highest caliber in general (and we are all working to improve that situation). That only makes this accomplishment that much more impressive. What in the world is his AEI?

I must admit, I should take my hat off and compliment his accomplishments.

[Roguelet]

I really don't know much about him... I found online that his first year at stud was in 1994, so that means he should have 13 crops including this year's, so 11 crops of racing age, right? Has he always stood in Indiana or did he start out somewhere else? That makes a big difference when looking at earnings; sometimes you see earnings quite a bit higher for stallions who have stood in other States. I don't know the answer... but I've always been sort of impressed with his numbers, moreso than most Indiana stallions. Also, back before Indiana Downs when the purses were higher and the better mares were coming to breed, did he get much action? Again, I don't know the answer, but your post got me wondering...

[tmqh]

According to his current owner, he has been Indiana the entire time, but for 7 years of his life, he never really saw much outside his stall. I guess he was in extremely poor shape and his former owner didn't breed many mares. His current owner bought him, brought him back to health and has been breeding some really nice mares. He bred close to 30 mares last year and he guesses he will double that this year. I just cannot express how much I love his foals. They are big, strapping foals and correct in everyway. I am a horse show judge, so I'm a stickler for good conformation. I believe in form to function and I can see why his babies are doing so well. I also had the opportunity to see some foals yesterday by some big names stallions from KY and was not nearly as impressed as I was with Moonshine's foals. Given all the facts, I really don't see how I can go wrong and to top it off, his owner is great to deal with. I do want to thank everyone on here for all opinions and suggestions.

[Roguelet]

Here are the final rankings (top 25) for 2006 in Indiana:

Leading Sires of Indiana - Results through December 31, 2006
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Stallion(YOB, Sire)Standing Farm 2007 Stud Fee Runners Winners 2006 Earnings
1 HUNTING HARD (1992, Seeking the Gold), Hickman's Stable $2,000 34 21 $585,569
2 CROWN AMBASSADOR (1994, Storm Cat), Swifty Farms $5,000 54 26 $573,507
3 MORO ORO (1993, Moro), L/J Sorrell Farm $2,500 35 20 $420,506
4 PRESIDENTIAL ORDER (1993, Danzig), M.C. Roberts Racing Stable $3,000 38 17 $370,675
5 COMPOSER (1992, Easy Goer), Lakeside Farm N/A 33 14 $290,164
6 WAKI WARRIOR (1989, Miswaki), Foot Fall Farm $750 27 12 $259,329
7 BLACK MOONSHINE (1987, Mt. Livermore), Ayer Farm $500 18 14 $247,668
8 JACQUELYN'S GROOM (1988, Runaway Groom), Calvin C. Prescott Farm N/A 32 13 $230,841
9 CAT POWER (1997, Storm Cat), Horse Country Stables $1,500 34 11 $186,615
10 INDY MOOD (1994, A.P. Indy), Atalanta Acres $1,000 20 11 $167,769
11 JACK LIVINGSTON (1990, Deputy Minister), Hood Thoroughbred Farm N/A 15 5 $158,501
12 SWISS TRICK (1984, Damascus) N/A 21 7 $157,317
13 COMMEMORATE (1981, Exclusive Native), House's Thoroughbreds $2,000 24 11 $132,274
14 BIDDING PROUD (1989, Explosive Bid) Died, 2004 9 4 $126,743
15 SPEEDY CURE (1988, Cure the Blues) Died, 2005 8 5 $99,596
16 DIPLOMATIC JET (1992, Roman Diplomat), Black Diamond Farm N/A 10 3 $89,115
17 OVERNIGHT EXPRESS (1992, Jungle Savage) N/A 8 4 $81,647
18 LAUNCH A LEADER (1986, Relaunch) Died 16 8 $78,565
19 UNBRIDLED MAN (1998, Unbridled), MB Thoroughbreds $1,000 13 4 $75,841
20 AT THE THRESHOLD (1981, Norcliffe) Died, 2002 11 5 $72,804
21 FAST FERDIE (1992, Ferdinand) N/A 11 6 $68,183
22 RADIO DAZE (1988, Damascus) N/A 8 4 $67,854
23 PLENTY CHILLY (1988, It's Freezing), Paradise Farm $1,500 9 4 $57,930
24 FLARE DANCER (1982, Sovereign Dancer) Died, 2005 11 4 $56,480
25 D. C. TENACIOUS (1987, Nijinsky's Secret) N/A 12 2 $53,286

My above list was actually incorrect... it included a stallion that did not stand in Indiana! The CORRECT list of the top 25 stallions in Indiana in 2006 is as follows:

Leading Sires of Indiana - Results through December 31, 2006
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Stallion(YOB, Sire)Standing Farm 2006 Stud Fee Runners Winners 2006 Earnings
1 CROWN AMBASSADOR (1994, Storm Cat), Swifty Farms $5,000 54 26 $573,507
2 MORO ORO (1993, Moro), Clearview Equine $2,500 35 20 $420,506
3 PRESIDENTIAL ORDER (1993, Danzig), All-American Thoroughbreds $3,000 38 17 $370,675
4 COMPOSER (1992, Easy Goer), Lakeside Farm N/A 33 14 $290,164
5 WAKI WARRIOR (1989, Miswaki), Foot Fall Farm $500 27 12 $259,329
6 BLACK MOONSHINE (1987, Mt. Livermore), Bar Nunn Ranch $500 18 14 $247,668
7 MONTREAL RED (1992, D'Accord), Black Diamond Farm $1,250 20 9 $245,894
8 JACQUELYN'S GROOM (1988, Runaway Groom), Calvin C. Prescott Farm $1,000 32 13 $230,841
9 INDY MOOD (1994, A.P. Indy), Atalanta Acres N/A 20 11 $167,769
10 JACK LIVINGSTON (1990, Deputy Minister), Hood Thoroughbred Farm $2,000 15 5 $158,501
11 SWISS TRICK (1984, Damascus), Hoosier Stables N/A 21 7 $157,317
12 COMMEMORATE (1981, Exclusive Native), House's Thoroughbreds $2,000 24 11 $132,274
13 BIDDING PROUD (1989, Explosive Bid), Died, 2004 9 4 $126,743
14 SPEEDY CURE (1988, Cure the Blues) Died, 2005 8 5 $99,596
15 DIPLOMATIC JET (1992, Roman Diplomat), Black Diamond Farm $1,500 10 3 $89,115
16 OVERNIGHT EXPRESS (1992, Jungle Savage), N/A 8 4 $81,647
17 LAUNCH A LEADER (1986, Relaunch) Died 16 8 $78,565
18 UNBRIDLED MAN (1998, Unbridled), MB Thoroughbreds $1,000 13 4 $75,841
19 AT THE THRESHOLD (1981, Norcliffe) Died, 2002 11 5 $72,804
20 FAST FERDIE (1992, Ferdinand), N/A 11 6 $68,183
21 RADIO DAZE (1988, Damascus), N/A 8 4 $67,854
22 PLENTY CHILLY (1988, It's Freezing), Paradise Farm $1,500 9 4 $57,930
23 FLARE DANCER (1982, Sovereign Dancer) Died, 2005 11 4 $56,480
24 D. C. TENACIOUS (1987, Nijinsky's Secret), N/A 12 2 $53,286
25 DAUFUSKIE PIRATE (1993, Marshua's Dancer), Brandywine Stables N/A 3 2 $49,243