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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:21 am 
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In order to broaden the pool of participants I would really appreciate
your participation on the following topic:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/forum/v ... 9588#19588

(The topic is: who is the most talented racing appaloosa with the highest percentage (%) of Thoroughbred blood? Any photo of such a case?)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:53 am 
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I'd start by looking at the Appy leading sire, Geneo JJ, who is by the Turn-To sireline stallion, Jim J.

Image

He's 11/16ths TB, but there's more TB blood if you go further back (Go Man Go is actually 3/4th TB, as is Diamond Charge). 25 of the 32 horses in his 5th gen are TBs... and 2 of the 7 who are listed as non-TBs have a TB parent.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:01 pm 
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Thank you so much Sam for the valuable information on this bona-fide appaloosa. Thanks also to JR and NZ Appaloosas for their participation on the other side of this site: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/forum/v ... 9588#19588
and their candidate, a horse named, I Love Willie (1983).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:53 pm 
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As I said on the ABDB...UNCLE EVERET (JC and ApHC) is 100% Thoroughbred and no known Appaloosa blood, does not look to carry any appaloosa color.

I also followed that with GENEO JJ. As Jorge notes...he is a bonified Appaloosa w/color to boot! Ed Allred bred a lot of Appaloosas and used many Thoroughbreds.

Jorge, when you speak of "talented" are you speaking as a race horse, as a sire or both?

I of course have my very favorite Appaloosa Race horses who went on to be Leading Sires of the ApHC Race....they come from the Appaloosa mare ROSE TIME who was at least half Thoroughbred and most likely her dam was an unregistered Thoroughbred...and I would suggest a product of the old US Remount program.

One is DEEP SOUTH. I researched this stallion many years ago for the owners Dave Nemelka, Ben Mears and Tom Hanna.

This is his pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/deep+south

On the ABDB...they have listed his third dam BERNARD YELLOW MARE as being by CHARLES BERNARD POLO STALLION and out of CHARLES BERNARD POLO MARE.

I disagree...not all of Bernard's mares were Polo horses.

The BERNRD YELLOW MARE was a very light chestnut of Thoroughbred breeding. As of this date, no names have been found...and all folks connected are gone to greener pastures.

DEEP SOUTH began his race career as a 2yr old which was his best year, he also raced at 3.

At 2: 6/5-1-0 Earnings $30,063.72.
At 3: 6/2-3-0 Earnings 6,194.88

Totals: 12 starts, 7 wins, 4 thrids, LTE $36,258.60.
Stakes Winner/Race Medallion Winner
A Leading Sire of $ in 1974
Champion 2 & 3 Yr Race Colt
Set NTR - 4 1/2 F - 53 2/5
EWR's at 4 ad 4 1/2 F.
California State Champion Race Horse
Grand Champion at Halter
Won Texas Futurity
2nd World Wide Futurity
Won Cal-Western Futurity.

I cannot locate his file right now...but he did go on to become a Leading Sire.

Pat

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Jorge, when you speak of "talented" are you speaking as a race horse, as a sire or both?



Wow Pat, I really really appreciate your comments. Thanks also for mentioning Uncle Everet... oh my goodness thats another fascinating story! As per the aforementioned quote, I am speaking of a talented racer with (at least) so-so progeny surviving up to 2007.
Thanks again,


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Jorge...I'm really having to dig for information. I've got so many records, books, etc...and I'm mainly focusing on the Appaloosa's at the start of the registry and some pertinate lines considered Pre-Registry.

My Race "stuff" is in several spots...so please bare with me.

I pull a pedigree I did in 1999 for a client in Trabuco Canyon, Ca.
She had purchased the following mare at Mike Auction in Mira Loma from a friend of mine Gene Adams. She is a sold mare w/o coat pattern but did race.

SCARLET PIMPERNEL ApHC CN 535483, Chestnut/sold filly, 1994 (Geneo JJ 410696 - Scarlet Spocketful (JC) by Pocketful In Vail (JC)...

Race info...SI 96 ROM Race, 18 starts/ 1 win, 2 seconds, 6 thirds,
$11, 268.00

Now we look at the pedigrees of DEEP SOUTH who, even though, has some questionable lines in his pedigree with his 3rd dam the BERNARD YELLOW MARE....he still is 3/4 Thoroughbred, the rest that is traceable is Appaloosa.

Looking at GENEO JJ and his pedigree....is just a little over 1/2 Thoroughbred...he also has Quarter Horse and Appaloosa...and that Appaloosa line

GENEO JJ's 5th dam is WEGO MELODY...she by the Appaloosa FOGGY STAR (who in his 4th generation we see GALLANT SNOW (JC); "Melody's" dam is said to be a sorrel Thoroughbred mare possibley named "Melody". This could of course mean many things...it was an unregistered TB mare, or of TB breeding, or even registered. At one time some thought it was MELODY MAIDEN (bay 1954)...but I have ruled that out.

Now...both GENEO JJ and DEEP SOUTH were bred to Thoroughbred mares....and the products of those bloodlines would still leave DEEP SOUTH in the lead with the greatest amount of TB blood, providing that progeny was bred to Thoroughbreds and so on.

At someplace along the way, the color washes out when crossing out...if not in this generation...it will happen. Solid Appaloosa can race, providing they are registered ApHC...and the ApHC will not turn those horses down for registration, even if they don't have certain characteristics...its the $$$ thing.

To consider greatness...we also have to understand the times these horses raced and were used as breeding stallions...

Some folks think that an Appaloosa or a Paint or even a Quarter Horse can achieve the level of "greatness". I will disagree.

I also think it interesting that the Thoroughbred now comes in so many colors and designs...still nothing in the Appaloosa coat pattern that I have seen in more current years. Of course we have those Thoroughbred with the "birdcatcher" spots...oh well...maybe some day, or I may have missed something. I certainly don't consider UNCLE EVERT to be an Appaloosa.

Pat


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:47 pm 
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I LOVE WILLIE....I love him too...When looking at his five generation pedigree, he could be considered 3/4 TB, as his grandparents were each 1/2 TB, making his sire BULL NUNNELEY 1/4 TB...actually more when looking at those horses in his 6 generation.

He had a great race record and was a Leading Sire.

I think he was a shorter distanced horse because of his QH blood. I would have to pull all those race charts on him, but they are packed away.

He was a Stakes Winner, Medallion Winner, 9 wins, $122,285.29; SI 100 ROM Race; Supreme Champion 2 Yr Race Horse; set NTR at Fresno...2 F in 21: 2/5....ad was a Leading Sire of ApHC $.

Would have to run his foals down to see which were out of TB mares...something to do in my time off (HA).

Pat


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:54 pm 
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I think if we only look at more current day Appaloosas that are 3/4 TB...we won't be able to come up with the 'most TB' in the bloodline.

Another one would be TIME FLIES....who is also out of the great producer ROSE TIME also...she produced 4 starters, all winners, 3 stakes winners, a World Wide Futurity Champion and a World Wide Derby Winner.

TIME FLIES: SW, MW, 36 Wins, LTE $97,250; SI 102 ROM Race; Champion Race Horse 1973; Champion Race Colt 1974; Set two NWR's...2F in 27: 1/5 and 4 1/2F in 52.0; NTR, 5 F in 1.01 2/5., and was a World Wide Derby Winner (which is not as prestigeous as the WW Fut). He was another Leading Sire of ApHC $.

Now he too was bred to TB mares...so some of these must be researched.

Pat


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:21 pm 
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I think if we only look at more current day Appaloosas that are 3/4 TB...we won't be able to come up with the 'most TB' in the bloodline.

Agreed. At best, you're going to find a 15/16th TB -- and I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

Geneo was bred to a couple of TB mares, and since he was 11/16th, the best any foal of his could be would be 13/16th (81%) -- which is still pretty good for Jorge's purposes. I don't recall any of Geneo's sons being at stud, but any foal of theirs would be no more than 7/8ths TB (87.5%).

Mysterymoonman is one of the Geneo sons I remember seeing at Los Al a couple of times. Decent runner. He's one of the sons out of a TB mare making him 81% TB. For some reason, I want to say he was grey. Pat?

eta

Actually, looks like Geneo does have a son at stud, Forty One Jj, who has been bred to at least one TB mare and produced a daughter named Ms. Johnson. So she's 7/8ths TB. If they breed her to a TB sire, then that would be the 15/16th and probably the highest percentage you're going to find.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:44 am 
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Well not the most TB but we have an Appy mare by Texas Ridgerunner (Drive The Sky/Texas Honeysuckle) who is the fastest thing on 4 feet.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/texas+ridgerunner

She is a polo pony. At our club we used to have a player that was a former jockey. (nothing like retiring from racing and going on to a safer sport!) He had some really classy bred TBs and our Appy mare blew past his TBs. He was shocked. The first few times he got his classy mare's pants whupped by an Appaloosa the look on his face was priceless!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:47 am 
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Sam...Yeah it looks like GENEO JJ's foal or foals might make it providing they have a respectible race record and some foals.

I worked on this til late last nite and hopefully by today...I'll have an answer for Jorge. Anyone else that has some ideas...it will greatly be appreciated...as I'm focusing in on about 5 stallions at this point.

More later, Pat


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:50 am 
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Appaloosa Polo Pony's.....I've got a great big file going on them looking for a book to be written! There were a number of Ap/TB crosses in Florida....lots of history there. Pat


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:30 pm 
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Jorge…Per your request:

The following four Appaloosa Stallions, which are ¾ or more Thoroughbred, who have good solid race records and have been on the ApHC Leading Sire of Race for numerous years. In the early 1970s there were no Speed Index or Ratings, no ROMs…Medallions were the “big” thing.

DEEP SOUTH - 1972 Appaloosa Stallion:

¾ Thoroughbred (5th generation has 24 registered TB’s, possibly more as 3rd dam was the Bernard Yellow Mare, a Polo mare, said to be of TB blood per her owners. My research indicates her sire was registered in the Jockey Club.

SW, 7 Wins, $36,259 (12 starts, 7 wins, 4 seconds, 0 thirds)
Champion Race Stallion & 2 Yr Race Colt 1974
Champion 3 Yr Race Colt 1975
Race Medallion Winner

Race Progeny thru 06/26/07: 144 ApHC foals, 150 starters, 69 winners, 19 stakes winners, 33 stakes placed…LTE $899,665.20 (average per starter $5998.); 33 ROM Race Qualifiers; 13 Race Medallion Winners; 2 Supreme Race Champions; 5 Race Champions; 3 Regional Race Champions. (Cents have been rounded off to nearest dollar).

Deep South first appeared on the ApHC Leading Sires of Race in 1979

TIME FLIES – 1971 Appaloosa Stallion:

¾ Thoroughbred (5th generation has 24 registered TB’s, possibly more as 3rd dam was the Bernard Yellow Mare, a Polo mare, said to be of TB blood per her owners. My research indicates her sire was registered in the Jockey Club.

SW, 36 Wins, $97, 250.
Champion Race Horse & Race Stallion 1973
Champion 3 Yr Race Stallion 1974
Race Medallion Winner
Set NWR – SFE 2 ½ F – 27: 1/5; set two NTR’s at Ferndale 3 F & 4 ½ F.
World Wide Derby Winner

Race progeny thru 06/26/07: 191 ApHC foals, 102 starters, 58 winners, 8 stakes winners, 21 stakes placed…LTE $607,447. (average per starter $5955.). Sire of 23 ROM Race Qualifiers, 4 Race Medallion Winners, 2 Race Champions.

Time Flies first appeared on the ApHC Leading Sires of Race in 1979

I LOVE WILLIE – 1983 Appaloosa Stallion:

¾ Thoroughbred (5th generation has 25 registered TB’s)
SW, 9 Wins, $122,285.29
SI – 100 – ROM Race – Race Medallion Winner
Supreme Champion 2 Yr Race Horse 1985
Set one NTR (2F – 21.2/5 at Fresno)

Race progeny thru 06/26/07: 180 ApHC foals, 69 starters, 47 winners, 6 stakes winners, 19 stakes placed…LTE $ 951,141. (average per starter $13,785); sire of 22 ROM Race, 14 Race Medallion Winners, 4 Supreme Race Champions, 9 Race Champions, 6 Regional Race Champions.

I Love Willie first appeared on the ApHC Leading Sires of Race in 1990

GENEO JJ – 1983 Appaloosa Stallion:

¾ Thoroughbred (5th generation has 24 registered TB’s, possibly more, 5th dam said to be TB, may be of TB blood, but not registered)

SW, 8 Wins, $69,206. (22/8-2/4)
SR 106 – ROM Race, Superior Race, Race Medallion Winner
Champion 2 Yr Race Colt 1985
Champion Aged Race Stallion
Set two NTR’s

Race Progeny thru 06/26/07: 183 ApHC foals, 123 starters, 91 winners, 25 stakes winners, 49 stakes placed…LTE $3,224,383. (average per starter $26, 215); 19 ROM Race Qualifiers, 42 Race Medallion Winners, 16 Race Champions, 1 Supreme Race Champion, 32 Regional Race Champions.

Sire of:

FORTY ONE JJ (out of April Forty First JC)…RR: 30/6 – 8 – 8, LTE $66,450; SI 96 ROM Race Qualifier, Race Medallion Winner, Champion 3 Yr Race Colt 1994, Regional Race Champion 1994, etc.

Race Progeny thru 06/26/07: 51 ApHC foals, 16 starters, 8 winners, 3 stakes winners, 4 stakes placed…LTE $169,826 (average per starter $3330.); 8 ROM Race Qualifiers, 5 Race Medallions, 1 Race Champion, 4 Regional Race Champions.

Sire of:

MS JOHNSON (CN563636) a bay solid mare foaled in 1997, out of Hoist The Glory JC. A Stakes Winner with 25 starts 4 wins, 1 second, 4 thirds…LTE $32,460. In her fifth generation she has 29 registered TBs. To date…no foals.

Note: My old friend Bud Shields was given TIME FLIES in his latter years and he passed there. I was able to see him when he was at Barbara and Buds place. Bud also owned MS. JOHNSON.

So I guess this shows the GENEO JJ’s get would be the winner of the “Appalosoa w/most Thoroughbred” in them.

I just don’t have anymore time to run all the foals of the other stallions mentioned. I ran the most important winners…so I would guess that at least FORTY ON JJ would be a good representative. Even though he does not have that many foals…he is still siring a small number each year…nothing reported for 2007 as yet. I’m wondering if there might be a problem with this horse in the breeding shed???

Times have changed for the ApHC race horse since the 1970s and before. I still hold DEEP SOUTH and TIME FLIES as very important contributors and if one were to evaluate the worth of the dollar from then to now...one certainly could not say they were not important as runners and as sires.

I also love...I LOVE WILLIE...he remains on current Leading Sires lists.

Researched & Compiled by Pat
PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Cottonwood, Ca.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:53 pm 
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There is no Lp in the Thoroughbred. It just doesn't exist at all in the gene pool. Uncle Everett's papers should be pulled because he's not an App of any shape, form or fashion. But I don't think he sired any either did he? So I guess it doesn't matter much. i saw his picture but can't remember much about him except he was a chestnut with either sabino and/or rabicano roaning over the hind quarters. I guess somebody knew somebody!


There was a guy who was breeding App x TB crosses and I think he had many 15/16. I guess if he crossed any of those with another he'd have 31/32? But he didn't show or race so who knows if any could run at all! He'd be dead by now I'm sure (or VERY VERY old). I will see if I still have th article, maybe they put some horse names in there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Summerhorse..."UE" did sire 8 ApHC foals, 1 performance point earner (1.0 pt)...if you will remember we discussed him back in April of 2006 on the ABDB. He didn't make much of an impression. Pat


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